Wypatroszony said:
appeal counter to be upped
It would only lead to appealed posts receiving as little attention as pending ones, making the whole appeal system obsolete.
Posted under General
Borrator said:
It would only lead to appealed posts receiving as little attention as pending ones, making the whole appeal system obsolete.
It's borderline unused for the undeletion purpose by the users averaging at 3 posts a day for entire user base. That's quite obsolete as is, people simply don't want to think of words to put in defense of mediocre arts. And it surely won't reach 250-400 posts/day influx the pending queue does, I'm almost sure. Is at least worth a try.
I'm personally more inclined to check closer (not synonymous to approve) the things with reasons to them, but that's probably only me. And I don't like the thread, it's basically 'I throw posts, you guess why should they get undeleted', mostly without knowing what you'll find within.
And with this I shall derail the thread no longer.
Aren't you blowing all this out of proportions? There is really nothing scary of outrageous in the current situation. Yes, some mediocre posts are approved from time to time, but their number is negligible compared to overall amount of posts that gets uploaded daily. Saying that this will turn Danbooru into another Gelbooru or revert it to its "Oldbooru days" is nothing but scaremongering.
What's more, proceeding with hasty changes can create more negative effects that it would create positives. From what I've seen, this site already needs more approvers (Janitors, Moderators, etc), especially those with diverse tastes and interests. Posts from copyrights and/or artists without active following have hard time getting approved even now. Simply complicating the approval process would likely exacerbate present issues and lead to loss of more good images than the bad ones.
Even if we look at Not One Of Us in particular. Yes, he approves some mediocre or occasionally even bad posts. But he also approves, frequently at the last moment, a lot of decent posts. If you look at the net result, instead of focusing on unsatisfactory cases, then you may notice that his contribution to the site is still positive.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against changes. I just want these changes to be beneficial for Danbooru as a whole. To have a resolution that would satisfy most users, rather than select few.
If we do want to complicate the approval process (e.g. min two janitors to approve a post) or to demote Not One Of Us, then the first step before that should be getting much more active Janitors with varied tastes and interests.
The idea has also occurred to me that if janitors organized rotating assignments, say, twelve janitors each assigned to view posts that have been pending for one, two, and three days, (and perhaps a couple assigned to posts pending four days), Not One Of Us wouldn't be under such pressure to view every post that's been pending for three and four days, and would have time and attention to give his approvals more consideration. This is all, of course, based on the speculation that he feels like he's under pressure, and that it's affecting his judgement, which could just be wrong.
Wypatroszony said:
And I don't like the thread, it's basically 'I throw posts, you guess why should they get undeleted', mostly without knowing what you'll find within.
It's for posts that they feel deserve a second look. You don't need every user to justify why they uploaded a post in the first place so why would they need to give a reason why something deserves a second look?
Log said:
It's for posts that they feel deserve a second look. You don't need every user to justify why they uploaded a post in the first place so why would they need to give a reason why something deserves a second look?
To convince me to do something more than just second look after I hidden it out of the mod queue. Flags need a reason no matter how utterly disastrous (or obviously bad) the targeted posts are, why not want a similar effort the other way around?
On second thought, after I saw unhelpful/unconvincing 'there is nothing wrong with it' as an appeal, I am not quite sure I want that as much as I used to a bit earlier.
Updated
Wypatroszony said:
Someone else or nobody. It's not the end of the world if posts get deleted, though I understand where does the different mentality come from. Use the appeals (not the thread, the option on the post, the thread usage is half-arsed) when posts gets thrown out (a few of them would be fished up by me if I missed them, happens, I'm only human.)
With all the respect, but you do realize I can give similar sort of advice for the problem of the rogue janitor: just flag the doubtful posts approved by him again. If it's true - as is claimed in this thread - that he has earned so many enemies here, then there shouldn't be a slightest problem to be one of them on standby to re-flag it (again) and see how it finally dies in queue.
There, problem solved.
richie said:
With all the respect, but you do realize I can give similar sort of advice for the problem of the rogue janitor: just flag the doubtful posts approved by him again. If it's true - as is claimed in this thread - that he has earned so many enemies here, then there shouldn't be a slightest problem to be one of them on standby to re-flag it (again) and see how it finally dies in queue.
There, problem solved.
Serve me an advice that prevents him approving doubtful flagged posts that were NOT approved by him prior to flag (contributor posts, mainly), then we'll talk.
Toks said:
Janitor trials still exist, but haven't been used since late 2013 by the looks of it.
Speaking of which, what are the prerequisites for applying?
D'Eye said:
Speaking of which, what are the prerequisites for applying?
I don't think you can apply until Albert asks for applications. I assume Albert would ignore you otherwise since he said he's satisfied with the current janitors.
Technically mods can also use janitor trials, though don't expect that to happen for the reasons NWF Renim said earlier.
Also it warns if any of the following criteria are met (but it doesn't disallow the trial from being created): signed up within the last month, has less than 100 favorites, or has negatives records
The problem with a two-janitor solution to a thread about a single problem janitor is that it practically assumes the whole problem is just one janitor auto-approving literally everything. Such a solution breaks down as soon as you have a second bad janitor. Unless there are other janitors that have really questionable judgment with certain topics that don't overlap with the-janitor-who-must-not-be-named, it's basically making the rules of a site that hosts thousands custom-fit to not offend a single person. (And if there ARE problems with a second janitor, then it doesn't help anything so long as there's any overlap in their tastes.) In such a case, it's just a question of why we're so afraid to talk about the elephant in the room.
richie said:
Fantastic idea - while in the meantime, all of contributors+ will naturally enjoy their close to absolute immunity, because - as we all already know - they'd still need a whole, round, ZERO JANITORS TO APPROVE.
Perhaps instead of introducing such half-hearted measures as mentioned above, we should cease possibility of registering any new users instead(except the paid Gold/Platinum ones) As this would give us similar results: dimnishing input from new users. The fun of being elitist will last... until current generation of contribs find some more urgent things to do in RL with noone in sight ready nor willing to replace them. But who are we to care about it now!
---
Yes, yes, let the stake start burning!
In the meantime, however, nobody addressed the one small question: who's going to approve such posts like mentioned earlier approver:Not_One_Of_Us user:Ai-to-Yukai? The kind of posts, let me remind you, are usually waiting in queue for whole 3 days, until he comes and finally approves them?
At least hypothetically, all those who get into the pre-approval tier are people who have demonstrated they are worthy of trust, as Albert put it.
Honestly, if what's being asked for is a system to make it fair and work in the future, then perhaps what we need is a system of ostracons.
If someone receives enough negative feedback from their current level or higher, it can trigger a process of demotion unless stopped by a mod. This can even be automatic so that the mods in question don't have to fear being the one who pulled the trigger.
It's still Tyranny of the Majority with a veto in the hands of mods, but at least it provides some reasonable way of allowing for someone who overtly breaks the trust of the group to be both put on notice and removed without requiring banging on the gong to get admin attention for a year of forum posts until the mob with pitchforks and torches is finally more trouble than it's worth to ignore.
It could work for janitors or lower, to the point of automatically removing the pre-approved post status of users who break the trust of the group, as well, solving your principle complaint.
Updated
Out of curiosity I ran some statistics on approvals for this year. Only one janitor's approvals ended up getting deleted more than 2% of the time. A few have approvals that ended up with a negative score, but never more than 1% of approvals. Posts that ended up with a 0 score were pretty common, with a range from 1% to 24%.
Here's what I'm going to do.
If anyone in this thread is interested in becoming a janitor, let me know.
I'm going to start explicitly seeking out new janitors on a monthly basis. I will probably target users with a large number of favorites that have a score from 1 to 10. Conversely, I will start aggressively pruning inactive janitors.
I will probably make some tweaks to the mod queue also.
So basically nothing against whom you've got a hefty amounts of negative feedback. Getting flagged posts to deletion will be even harder, because every new wonkier approver will likely have the 'guardian' behind them, hooray!
...I think I lost faith in anything getting improved whatsoever, unless only sensible people join in. Though I don't think the most sensible people actually follow this thread.
albert said:
Conversely, I will start aggressively pruning inactive janitors.
How much time a Janitor needs to idle to be considered "inactive"?
Wypatroszony said:
...I think I lost faith in anything getting improved whatsoever, unless only sensible people join in. Though I don't think the most sensible people actually follow this thread.
I see what you did there.
Kadoya said:
It does make an interesting read though.
Danbooru: The Novel.
D'Eye said:
How much time a Janitor needs to idle to be considered "inactive"?
Toks said:
It checks that the median is between 3 and 10, not that it's really high.
And it doesn't automatically promote people. Albert still manually promotes them.
Maybe we could set the median to be higher for popular tags like Touhou or Kancolle, which generally score above average even when the art is mediocre.