Donmai

Loli/shota check thread.

Posted under General

post #5983049

I was going through this artists' work doing some translation of SFX, and found I could no longer see the last page of this comic. If I recall correctly from back when I favorited it, she's pretty clearly an adolescent, not pre-adolescent (although I of course can't see anymore to make sure; for reference the same original character appears elsewhere, such as post #4510099, where she is clearly shown to have small or medium breasts, which is why I believe she probably doesn't count as a loli here either). I'll also note that the user who added the tag, did so on the same day that they created their account here on dan, so they quite possibly weren't familiar with the usage of the tag, which, you know, if that is the case then no big deal, we all make mistakes, I know I certainly do. But if that's the case, we should probably also check the other post to which they appended the loli tag, post #6695401; although I have no context for this one at all, I've never seen it. Anyways, thanks for the help, cheers

MysteriousLounger said:

post #5983049

I was going through this artists' work doing some translation of SFX, and found I could no longer see the last page of this comic. If I recall correctly from back when I favorited it, she's pretty clearly an adolescent, not pre-adolescent (although I of course can't see anymore to make sure; for reference the same original character appears elsewhere, such as post #4510099, where she is clearly shown to have small or medium breasts, which is why I believe she probably doesn't count as a loli here either). I'll also note that the user who added the tag, did so on the same day that they created their account here on dan, so they quite possibly weren't familiar with the usage of the tag, which, you know, if that is the case then no big deal, we all make mistakes, I know I certainly do. But if that's the case, we should probably also check the other post to which they appended the loli tag, post #6695401; although I have no context for this one at all, I've never seen it. Anyways, thanks for the help, cheers

I have no strong opinion on post #6695401, but for post #5983049, loli very much applies here imo, it's not supposed to be tagged "with the context of other posts" (that's a rule in general to Tag what you See on the one post, but especially for loli i can't think of exceptions to that rule).
Loli should never be canon-tagged, it should be used based on what the character looks like in the post. And even then, it's hard to pin-point "canon" for one artist's unnamed original character that can look both pre-teen and early-teen from one page to the other in the same comic.

Mayhem-Chan said:

I have no strong opinion on post #6695401, but for post #5983049, loli very much applies here imo, it's not supposed to be tagged "with the context of other posts" (that's a rule in general to Tag what you See on the one post, but especially for loli i can't think of exceptions to that rule).
Loli should never be canon-tagged, it should be used based on what the character looks like in the post. And even then, it's hard to pin-point "canon" for one artist's unnamed original character that can look both pre-teen and early-teen from one page to the other in the same comic.

I do think that for a multi-post comic, we should be able to consider other posts to a point (as long as they're directly connected, i.e. not post #4510099), since some characters might end up with shorter proportions based on angles, etc. Some characters may even look more loli from the back compared to the front, which could be argued for post #5983049. However, this is the only nude shot we see of her and her overall proportions look a bit shorter than in previous posts despite being highly visible in the image. It really does look like she spontaneously got a bit younger (or maybe the uniform made her look older), so unfortunately, I don't think the angle argument will work here. I agree it's probably best to keep the tag on.

ANON_TOKYO said:

That's a recipe for disaster, the image should be tagged on it's own.

I'm not talking about cases like this. I'm referring more to cases like pool #22849, which was previously discussed starting at forum #293521, where the individual posts are borderline and there is not much of a significant difference in the character's figure among them. If one post seemed closer to loli than the others but at the same time could reasonably be argued that it's just due to the angle, I would be more likely to give it the benefit of the doubt. It works the other way, too. If one post seemed slightly less loli than the others but just enough to be borderline, I would still be hesitant to remove the tag.

This should not be taken to mean it's okay to ignore things in one post of a series in favor of the rest. It's not supposed to replace "Tag what you see." It's supposed to make it easier to reach a decision on borderline posts without being a victim of analysis paralysis (like what seemed to happen with that pool) and should be used sparingly.

@Blank User: I'm personally supporting this motion to use other pictures of multi-post comics and similar things for edge cases; not as a replacement for "tag what you see", we obviously don't want to get rid of this as a general rule due to character age ups and age downs; I just personally think that its simply super unintuitive for a user if the same character in one shot of the same story is categorized as loli and not in the other, or vice versa.
Also, I'm really supporting the notion of perspective you are putting forward. There are certain body elements that signify in art a woman being a woman vs being a girl (like hip proportions for example), and perspective can heavily influence how those come accross.
If we leave drawn art for a second and go to photography, thats an effect you can see all the time; certain angles just have the effect to forshorten certain body elements in a way that makes people look younger (the easiest example is being photographed from a high angle and therefore appearing to be smaller).

I hope my explanation makes sense, I'm not very good with the terminology here.

Blank_User said:
[...]

CasualStan said:
[...]

So because the discussion about pool #22849 had slightly more split opinions on what to tag (without even preventing the only reasonable conclusion of tagging all of it as petite because that's clearly what the girl looked like in every single image), we should use an unhelpful-at-best and sabotaging-at-worst new rule of thumb to prevent "analysis paralysis" (thing that this topic already exists to address), to deal with "edge cases" that people won't even agree on whether they're edge cases or not?

If there is really "not much of a significant difference in the character's figure" from one post to the other, why would you reasonably tag one differently from the other? if not because of insignificant/questionable differences that don't weight much on their own? If the character has the exact same body but with one single change like angle or breast size or a smidge of a bigger ""hip ratio"", it shouldn't be enough to significantly change your perception in the first place, let alone tagging loli or not.
If a character is "too ambiguous" to one user then that's the whole point of this topic to let it be discussed with others

Mayhem-Chan said:

So because the discussion about pool #22849 had slightly more split opinions on what to tag (without even preventing the only reasonable conclusion of tagging all of it as petite because that's clearly what the girl looked like in every single image), we should use an unhelpful-at-best and sabotaging-at-worst new rule of thumb to prevent "analysis paralysis" (thing that this topic already exists to address), to deal with "edge cases" that people won't even agree on whether they're edge cases or not?

If there is really "not much of a significant difference in the character's figure" from one post to the other, why would you reasonably tag one differently from the other? if not because of insignificant/questionable differences that don't weight much on their own? If the character has the exact same body but with one single change like angle or breast size or a smidge of a bigger ""hip ratio"", it shouldn't be enough to significantly change your perception in the first place, let alone tagging loli or not.
If a character is "too ambiguous" to one user then that's the whole point of this topic to let it be discussed with others

This is not a proposal for a new rule of thumb. It's simply recognizing that most older characters are not going to spontaneously turn into lolis or vice-versa barring the occasional age-changing shenanigans. The comic example was something this would not apply to because it's far too easy to see that particular post as a loli despite the same character looking maybe a year or two older in the previous posts.

I think there's a disconnect here because you seem to be arguing against this in the first paragraph while advocating for it in the second. If the character in one post is loli/petite/adult and looks consistent within the same series of posts, then you've already done most of the analysis work. But other users might change the tags while looking at only one or two posts, thus causing them to be tagged inconsistently. In those cases, it would make sense to decide for the whole series of posts based on how the character looks in it on average, with the exception of significant outliers.

post #8178904

This is definitely shota and should not be tagged with child. Pedophile doesn't fit either according to its wiki. I'd remove the tags myself, but the post is banned, so someone of Approver rank or higher will need to do it.

Sorry, I know this is a bit out of scope for this thread, but I wanted to make sure this was taken care of.

Edit: Thank you, @Unbreakable.

Updated

Blank_User said:

This is not a proposal for a new rule of thumb. It's simply recognizing that most older characters are not going to spontaneously turn into lolis or vice-versa barring the occasional age-changing shenanigans.

Exactly, which is why it's a pointless idea in the first place because that means the same reasonable conclusion can already be achieved through the normal individual-post perspective. That's the point my second paragraph was trying to get across, it was not advocating for your suggestion but arguing that at best, it does nothing.
The other users that might change the tags would do so regardless of the number of posts they've looked at, for the same point i made before about the fact that what's considered borderline isn't either agreed upon by different users

Dannk said:

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/8185877

Pretty much loli

Blank_User said:

post #8178904

This is definitely shota and should not be tagged with child. Pedophile doesn't fit either according to its wiki. I'd remove the tags myself, but the post is banned, so someone of Approver rank or higher will need to do it.

Edit: Thank you, @Unbreakable.

How is it still visible/why do tags need changed if its banned?

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275707?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275693?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275494?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275456?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275736?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29

blindVigil said:

Most of those are petite or borderline. There's really only one that I confidently believe is loli, the rest range from "confident no" to "maybe"

Agreed, if the one to be tagged loli is post #7639634

santander said:

How is it still visible/why do tags need changed if its banned?

https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275707?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275693?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275494?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275456?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/6275736?q=rose_%28ohayousan_084%29

I don't think any of these is shota, they look just like any average otoko no ko

santander said:

How is it still visible/why do tags need changed if its banned?

The tags are visible if you add .json to the URL and you could find the ID using MD5 search from the source.
It needs to be tagged so that the approver+s can find it when they look for exclusive banned shota paid rewards to fap to /j

Mayhem-Chan said:

Exactly, which is why it's a pointless idea in the first place because that means the same reasonable conclusion can already be achieved through the normal individual-post perspective. That's the point my second paragraph was trying to get across, it was not advocating for your suggestion but arguing that at best, it does nothing.
The other users that might change the tags would do so regardless of the number of posts they've looked at, for the same point i made before about the fact that what's considered borderline isn't either agreed upon by different users

Again, I am not suggesting a change to the status quo. I'm not suggesting any change in policy. You said you didn't think there's be any exceptions to "tag what you see" for loli, so I provided a very limited situation in which other factors might be considered.

The pool was the best example I could think of, but I'll admit it's not a very good one. A better one would be showing someone who obviously looks like an adult who may be out-of-focus and off-model to the point of looking borderline in one post within the same line of events. I think both of us would agree that tagging loli in that case would be ridiculous, but that means we're using clues from the posts before and after to influence our decision. But seeing as how I don't have such an example on hand, it's probably not a huge concern and maybe not worth talking about anyway. Such mistags, while annoying, are still preferable to untagged loli/shota, and are far too rare to worry about anyway.

Ultimately, I agree with sticking to "tag what you see," and part of that is because the strategy I described is something we'll all probably doing subconsciously anyway. We can't completely remove the influence of what we already saw without wiping our memories, but for most of us, our preconceptions and attempt to judge each post individually will balance each other and lead us to the right decision. So we should favor strict policies like this while understanding in the back of our minds that our compliance is going to be maybe 99% instead of 100%. I don't really like the phrase "use common sense," but that's really what I'm trying to advocate here.

santander said:

How is it still visible/why do tags need changed if its banned?

It still shows up in search counts. Also, what if the artist decides to give us permission to show it, or releases a paid reward for free? It's better to remove those tags (specifically, child from loli/shota posts) before they might become unbanned.