Breast size and the ToS

I strongly disagree with that course of action, albert.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: breasts two head sizes or more is most definitely what I'd call grotesque in regard to proportions, and proportions are an absolutely crucial part of art. Drawing the line at roughly two heads is generous in that regard.

If Danbooru is supposed to be a repository of high-quality art in indexable form, then we need to stay the course. Otherwise, we'll be significantly lowering the bar for art quality around here, and that brings us one big step closer to being Gelbooru.

I don't think I have to expound upon why I find that idea distasteful.

Action_Kamen said:
No it doesn't. (snip)

You're doing it very, very wrong. You're going by head height as the width of the boob. You need to go by area in both measurements.

Here, I'll show my work: Bam.
Area of her head = ~56500 pixels.
Area of each boob = ~156700 pixels, which is more than two and three-quarters the size of her head.

As an aside, this is far more strictly leaning against my own usual yardstick, which tends to go along the lines of "eyeball it - is that roughly larger than twice her head per boob? y/n".

sgcdonmai said:

You need to go by area in both measurements.
head.

That's wrong. Literally. That's not how proportioning in human figure drawing is done. The proportions of the human body are estimate with length of the head not the area. This is how its

http://www.imagebam.com/image/9821e4136773407

So basically you've been judging breast size to be against terms of service by an inaccurate and made up scale?

No he's judging them based on the scale decided upon in the previous thread to bring this exact thing up.

edit: Log said it better than my rambling could.

double-edit: And even if that wasn't so, in that particular image, the height of the boob from top to bottom is about two heads anyway.

Edit: Never mind, momentary fit of retardation.

Log said:
No he's judging them based on the scale decided upon in the previous thread to bring this exact thing up.

Link to the thread. If its the very first thread where Albert clarified the TOS then I don't see the rule there.

sgcdonmai said:

double-edit: And even if that wasn't so, in that particular image, the height of the boob from top to bottom is about two heads anyway.

(for example, breasts or penises that are larger than two heads in size).

Being two heads or approximately two heads isn't against TOS, its being larger.

albert said:
Maybe the size limit should be increased to something like 4-5 heads.

I'm against this, as 4-5 heads would typically be half to a bit more than half of a character's height, which is ridiculously disproportionate.

As it is, I think 2 heads is a good upper bound, as by any normal proportion guide, 2 heads should be the width of the entire torso. Breasts 2 heads wide would leave a head worth of each breast hanging off either side of the torso (assuming roughly circular breasts as typically seems to be the case in anime-style drawing). That much overhang seems to me to be disproportionate enough to violate the ToS.

I don't think an increase in the size limit is necessary either.

I find that in a lot of illustrations the head is slightly larger than on flesh and blood human (perhaps to accommodate the larger eyes found in many styles drawing) so the 8-heads high rule doesn't quite work out perfectly. Similarly, one problem with using sgcdonmai's ellipse method is when breasts are being supported (e.g. with a bra) vs. unsupported. That could tip the scale between large and huge or huge and gigantic.

Shinjidude said:
(assuming roughly circular breasts as typically seems to be the case in anime-style drawing).

Perhaps it's not that they're more circular but with some artists, when breasts reach the 1-2 head size area, they seem to retain their "fullness" as opposed to being affected by gravity and under going some sagging. So they look bigger than what an actual person with a similar bust would have.

reese said:
I find that in a lot of illustrations the head is slightly larger than on flesh and blood human (perhaps to accommodate the larger eyes found in many styles drawing) so the 8-heads high rule doesn't quite work out perfectly.

This is very true, and it only makes the distortion even worse. With a larger than normal head, now what would have been two normal sized heads (in proportion to the body) are the equivalent of two and a half or three.

As I understood it, 4-5 heads size was just an example and we should not take it literally. The intent seems to be that images shouldn't be banned/deleted simply becase breast are as large as 2 heads, or somewhat larger.

We can make it 3 heads size, or maybe it would be better to remove this particular phrase from the ToS completely, since very large breasts doesn't automatically make the art grotesque. If the image features exceedingly bad/absurd proportions it still can be flagged as such or passed by in the mod queue, even without this limitation.

MyrMindservant said:
or maybe it would be better to remove this particular phrase from the ToS completely, since very large breasts doesn't automatically make the art grotesque.

Hell, why don't we just delete the Prohibited Content section of the Terms of Service entirely?

Look, point of fact is, the ToS is used as a filter and a guideline for the Janitor+ staff to try to synch their personal judgment to. As it is, sometimes the art in a pic is good enough despite technically violating the Prohibited Content guidelines that a Janitor or Mod will approve it anyway.

Case in point: post #528060. It's guro, featuring bodily distension and the aftermath of horrific mutilation. However, the technique and composition in the image is excellent, thus it gets a waiver.

Consider that flagging an image - even for a ToS-related issue - is roughly equivalent to J. Random User saying, "Hey... Are you guys really sure you want this here?" and that it's perfectly valid for the reply to be "Yes; we like it, and we think it belongs here."

Ultimately, this means that making the strictures of the ToS looser will achieve nothing. Unless, of course, you count the inevitable influx of complaints from users along the lines of "But those breasts aren't over 5 heads in size! This isn't against the ToS! Why weren't my last hundred posts of breast-expasion porn approved?!"

ToS is definitely a guideline for both Janitor+ and uploaders. I feel that the terms should be on the stricter side as it sets a line in an area that it's ok to push a little.

Three heads is probably too big to set the limit at, I think it should remain at two with Janitor+ making the call on anything larger. Keeping it smaller will make people really think about if the art quality is good enough to warrant an exception and that will help keep more of the really bad pictures out.

Frankly I think a lot of the reverse of some of these arguments can also holds true. You can argue that having the restriction stricter will make someone think more about approving it or uploading it, having it stricter also reduces thinking about the image quality as well. There are many here who will flag or delete such images without looking at the quality simply because all they see is the size of the breasts. The narrowness of the restriction only helps such people remove the content without looking at the quality of the image. Even if an approver approves it, someone will turn around and say that that user approved it in error instead of considering it an exception.

Additionally many have in the past have stated that oversized breasts inherently is tied to low quality, to the extent of some saying that none or nearly none would be approve worthy. This reveals a narrowness of thought and opinion that would bias the ability to determine quality of such images. So even if one was of high quality, such an individual would still be likely to flag or outright delete such content simply because they have the excuse of using the ToS.

Anyways my two cents. I don't plan on responding again in this thread, since I don't expect it to achieve anything. All the arguments will be the same on both sides, no one will see eye to eye, and this thread will be silent and forgotten in a couple days. The whole bottom line of this issue is simply a lack of trust. A lack of trust in those who approve such images in discerning quality and a lack of trust of those who flag and delete such images in discerning quality.

NWF_Renim said:
...

I agree with you in that if the ToS is kept stricter, it will motivate more people to use it for justification for flagging things. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing so long as the ToS is a relatively close approximation of what the people with the capability of approving things think is appropriate (which in my opinion it is)

The way I understand the ToS to work is anything that clearly violates it has a clear and justifiable reason to be left unapproved or flagged. If a mod sees exceptional merit, they will override the ToS and the image stays (provided it's not flagged, but in that case another mod gets their chance to second the first person's opinion).

If by consensus we agree that most images with breasts five heads or smaller are acceptable in unexceptional circumstances, then we should loosen the ToS criteria. I don't agree with it, and I doubt the consensus does, but if it does, we should.

Suiseiseki said:
ToS is definitely a guideline for both Janitor+ and uploaders. I feel that the terms should be on the stricter side as it sets a line in an area that it's ok to push a little.

I agree with this for the same reason as what I said above. The limit should be set just about at the line where we decide basically everything laxer should be acceptable. Loosening it too much removes the ToS as a form of justification and explanation for when images that are unacceptable by the mods' consensus fail to get through but also fail to break the ToS.

albert said:
At this point I am leaning towards lifting the ban on huge breasts. When I came up with the rule I had in mind the few drawings where the breasts were literally the size of the entire body, and the two head rule in hindsight is kind of arbitrary.

I think a better guideline for what constitutes guro art is what passes for R-18G on Pixiv (and even then there could be exceptions). Very large breasts typically don't warrant the R-18G tag, and I don't think they should be banned here either. Maybe the size limit should be increased to something like 4-5 heads.

I agree with this. The spirit of the rule was to guard against pictures like this post #427268, not pictures like this: post #933173 post #862174. You can find the discussion here: http://danbooru.donmai.us/forum/show/17257.

The rule isn't being enforced as intended by the one who instituted, so either the janitors start treating it in the spirit of its intended use or the rule be remodeled to realize the intent.

It seems like the problem with huge breasts isn't solely because of grotesqueness, though. I'm fairly certain that people aren't enforcing the rule because of the stance on guro, but rather the bad proportions that are created when overly huge breasts, hips and thighs are present. Even if the rule against oversized body parts is lifted, we'd still have proportions to think about when you stick comically oversized body parts on a frame where they look completely out of place and they'd end up flagged anyway, except now they'd be completely based on what each individual thinks is too large.

That one is very old, but perhaps still valid. I am certain, however, that we've narrowed the scope of acceptability in the intervening years.

Going off the Forum Search function, here's all the threads I can dredge up on the issue:
forum #10425
forum #17257 (above)
forum #28997
forum #30360
forum #31631
forum #34903
forum #36999
forum #38329
forum #42409
forum #46549 (possibly related)

There might be more, but the list is getting a bit long.

Arrei said:
It seems like the problem with huge breasts isn't solely because of grotesqueness, though. I'm fairly certain that people aren't enforcing the rule because of the stance on guro, but rather the bad proportions that are created when overly huge breasts, hips and thighs are present.

This.

My opinion, in quote form:

Snesso said:
As long as there is quality, who cares if its scat, guro or god knows what?

homeless homo said:
Why can't we just approve based on the quality of the art, and not the content? I've seen good futa, good scat (amazingly), and some pretty nice guro style images before. ...So in the end, we should approve well drawn, tasteful images regardless of the fetish, and we should reject badly drawn, distasteful images.

ePlus said:
All artwork uploaded to Danbooru should be judged in a non biased way and soley on the skill of the artist and not by content or who uploaded it.

D.W. said:
That said, the only person who's opinion really matters is albert's, this is his system, he pays for it.

The problem with with asking mods to judge in an entirely non biased way is that it precludes "approve only good quality images" or "approve only images you personally like", which are both explicit directives given to janitors and above.

To judge without bias would mean to judge without a bias towards what is considered "good" or towards one's own preferences.

The ToS sketches in broad strokes an approximation of those biases, and warns against posting anything too far outside that range.

I think the problem some people are having with this rule is that a lot of art has breasts drawn around that particular size, some quality and some not so much, but regardless they get flagged soley based on the wording of that rule. By raising the limit on the site, as NWF Renim said before, it would put more pressure on the most important aspect, quality, as opposed to the letter of the law. I think its pretty ridiculous to say that more art would get approved simply because its within the ToS. ToS breaking or not, it has to be quality.

Also, saying that huge breasts are inherently bad proportions is pretty silly. That's almost like saying chibi is inherently bad proportions. Exaggerated features are not only used in art all the time, it's often the point. Real life anatomy and proportions are used more as a guideline, with some things followed more closely than others. It doesn't mean it can't be deviated from for the sake of cuteness appeal or sex appeal, as long as its done tastefully.