Let's Talk about Gender-tagging for On-model Pokemon.

Zalza said:

Neither Scizor nor Koraidon are "human shaped", they are just bipedal non-birds. They're no more "human-shaped" than an actual, irl, dog walking on it's hind legs. You are litterally re-inventing platos featherless biped problem here. Koraidon dosen't even use his front limbs for picking up things does he? There's probably a term for it but the best answer is what e621, actual furry site, would have tagged as "semi_anthro". Yes, in the proper dictionary defiition of the word that is still anthropomorphic, but so is the east wind. It's just about having human attributes at all.

Plato was attempting to describe a literal human while we are attempting to isolate humanoid characters, which for the purpose of Danbooru means characters with humanlike proportions. The comparison isn't even applicable.

Scizor might not have proper hands, but it's still distinctly humanoid. Cyberpunk Edgerunner's Rebecca wouldn't be any less humanoid if she had big robot drills instead of big robot hands; this logic applies regardless if the character is an anthropomorphic animal or not.

As for Koraidon, see asset #25141006, asset #25141018, and asset #25141007. Official images from both the anime and the game (plus a bonus BANDAI figurine) all show it with a humanoid figure. It has two arms with elbows that bend like a human's, it has two legs with knees that bend like a human's, it has hands with fingers and opposable thumbs, and if you ignore the stupid tyre embedded in its chest (which isn't even a disqualifying factor, see post #8518564) then the proportions of its limbs and torso are similar to a human's proportions. You might not like it, but it's completely in line with other reptilian furry characters.

AngryZapdos said:

Plato was attempting to describe a literal human while we are attempting to isolate humanoid characters, which for the purpose of Danbooru means characters with humanlike proportions. The comparison isn't even applicable.

You're missing the point that you're defining humanoid as simply walking on two legs while not being a bird. Of course when something has four limbs and none are wings that is going to look like "arms", that does not mean it is "humanoid". That description includes real life kangaroos. It would have to actually have a human bodies shape such as the comparatively flat chest, not just "bipedal with arms". Again, this would be some weird semi anthro thing.

AngryZapdos said:
Scizor might not have proper hands, but it's still distinctly humanoid. Cyberpunk Edgerunner's Rebecca wouldn't be any less humanoid if she had big robot drills instead of big robot hands; this logic applies regardless if the character is an anthropomorphic animal or not.

That character would be a human with one part replaced appearance wise, THAT is an unapplicable comparsion. Though I will admit that one anime screenshot makes scizor look slightly humanoid, it is also drawn slightly off model with the more human face.

AngryZapdos said:
As for Koraidon, see asset #25141006, asset #25141018, and asset #25141007. Official images from both the anime and the game (plus a bonus BANDAI figurine) all show it with a humanoid figure. It has two arms with elbows that bend like a human's, it has two legs with knees that bend like a human's, it has hands with fingers and opposable thumbs, and if you ignore the stupid tyre embedded in its chest (which isn't even a disqualifying factor, see post #8518564) then the proportions of its limbs and torso are similar to a human's proportions. You might not like it, but it's completely in line with other reptilian furry characters.

There is abseloutely nothing "humanoid" about Koraidon. A real life kangaroo is more humanoid than Koraidon.

Zalza said:

There is abseloutely nothing "humanoid" about Koraidon. A real life kangaroo is more humanoid than Koraidon.

1boy solo furry_male outdoors photo_(medium) blurry_background sunlight day blue_sky depth_of_field nature kangaroo

Two can play at this nonsense game. Even a housecat on its hind legs can look humanoid.

Any quadruped animal can look decently humanoid on its hind legs IRL, and conversely a human can look kinda like an animal when on all fours. I don't think that's a justification for gender tagging animalistic/creaturesque pokemon.

Ylimegirl said:

Two can play at this nonsense game. Even a housecat on its hind legs can look humanoid.

Any quadruped animal can look decently humanoid on its hind legs IRL, and conversely a human can look kinda like an animal when on all fours. I don't think that's a justification for gender tagging animalistic/creaturesque pokemon.

A kangaroo does not have human proportions, which is the whole point. An argument could be made for its arms, but as soon as you look below the chest it gets real fucked real fast. I don't know about you, but personally, my dick doesn't sit between my knees and my legs don't resemble chicken drumsticks. Its torso and legs are completely different to a human's.

Meanwhile, Koraidon's proportions match a person's. Its torso is about the same size and shape, it has a waist at the same place a human does, its legs bend normally like a human's instead of backwards like a dog or a cat, its thighs/calves and fore/upper arms are the same length as a human's and connect to its torso at the same points they do on a human... what more do you need?

Koraidon has an animal_head, animal_hands and animal_feet, a tail, and that stupid tyre sticking out of his chest. Even when combined, none of these things disqualify a humanoid character from being considered humanoid for tagging purposes. This discussion is reaching the point where if an on-model Koraidon was drawn wearing a suit, it'd be 1other, but if it had a version without the suit, it'd be no_humans. That's insane, and it's that double standard I want to avoid more than anything else.

AngryZapdos said:

!as set #25230712

Interestingly you an I have very different results when tracing Koraidon.

(Curse Evazion for not only letting me not indude more than one image forcing me to squash these 3 together into one abomination, the top one was meant to stand a lone here, but having to change the "asset" in the reply qoutes because the system is fucked)

Ylimegirl said:

!ass et #25231477

1boy solo furry_male outdoors photo_(medium) blurry_background sunlight day blue_sky depth_of_field nature kangaroo

Two can play at this nonsense game. Even a housecat on its hind legs can look humanoid.

Any quadruped animal can look decently humanoid on its hind legs IRL, and conversely a human can look kinda like an animal when on all fours. I don't think that's a justification for gender tagging animalistic/creaturesque pokemon.

Exactly.

I will concede that what Koraidon DOES have is the pressence of a waistline that curves slightly inward and shoulders that go out, that chest is more human like. If that is what zapdos meant then fair point but he expressed it abseloutly terribly. But it's buried beneath so much other nonsense that I would never consider Koraidon humanoid. Koraidons human chest (minus tire) was the exception not the rule. Everything else is just an animal on hindlegs. Which is what zapdos seemed not to grasp as he kept pointing out "but this human/anthro had this one animal trait too" when in those characters the animal trait was the exception, in koraidon the y shaped chest was the exception.

AngryZapdos said:
I don't know about you, but personally, my dick doesn't sit between my knees and my legs don't resemble chicken drumsticks. Its torso and legs are completely different to a human's.

Your dick presumably also isn't hidden inside a slit like koraidons would be nor do you walk in some weird split like upright Koraidon or have some insect, whatever it is is scizor has, on your lower body. The whole point is you are getting tunnel vision on minute details (be that the animal traits on other things or koraidons y shaped chest).

The examples you linked are 3 characters that are very debatably humanoid (who the hell considers bowser humanoid?) and one portrait of someone with a wolf head where you can't even see the body. And nobody would tag on model Koraidon in a suit as 1other who wouldn't tag a rabbit standing upright in a suit as 1other.

Any way we are getting off topic here and the whole point is that "no humanoids" would be abseloutly terrible both for finding pictures with only pokemon/digimon/whatever (and god forbid you're searching regardless of franchise) as you would run into this whole "but what is humanoid" argument constantly.

BUR #38868 is pending approval.

create implication no_humanoids -> no_humans

Any way we are getting off topic here and the whole point is that "no humanoids" would be abseloutly terrible both for finding pictures with only pokemon/digimon/whatever (and god forbid you're searching regardless of franchise) as you would run into this whole "but what is humanoid" argument constantly.

People cana rgue about what is humanoid but this allows you to actually search for pictures with no people.

Since the original tag is already used as the name implies I would suggest just making an implication rather than aliasing it.

Alternatively you could make it "no people" but I don't think anybodys been putting elfs or robots indistingushable for people in the no_humans tag. It's just the animal/pokemon/etc characters that are the problem.

Zalza said:

I will concede that what Koraidon DOES have is the pressence of a waistline that curves slightly inward and shoulders that go out, that chest is more human like. If that is what zapdos meant then fair point but he expressed it abseloutly terribly.

I don't know how many times I've mentioned the word "proportions" so far, but I'm sure it's been a lot.

The examples you linked are 3 characters that are very debatably humanoid (who the hell considers bowser humanoid?) and one portrait of someone with a wolf head where you can't even see the body.

I'm sorry, but I cannot take your arguments seriously, or to be in good faith, when you consider obviously anthropomorphic furry characters like Renamon and Bowser "very debatably" humanoid, and you are actively advocating for them to count as no_humans. It's clear to me now that your personal definition of humanoid runs counter to any definition that would be useful to Danbooru's tagging system.

The Koraidon debate gives me a headache.

There's a clear difference between a rearing quadruped (post #8907513) and a digitigrade biped (post #8622106), though, which I'd like to emphasize.

No opinion on which one Koraidon falls under.

My main goal in creating this thread was to ultimately come up with a list of Pokemon that are never no humans when drawn official since it's something that I struggle to tag and recognize and if there was any list poor @Trouble_Windows wouldn't have to correct my tags as much.

Correct me if I'm wrong but right now we all agree on...
Gardevoir and Kirlia being 1girl (issues relating to flat_chest notwithstanding)
Lucario has been 1other for a while.
Meowscarada 1other or 1girl.
Lopunny 1girl
Braixen 1girl Delphox as well I assume?
Jynx 1girl
Gothitelle line being 1girl
Mr. Mime and Mr. Rime 1boy
Incineroar 1boy
Machop line being 1boy
The genies like Thundurus 1boy with the exception of Enamorus

I do not think Koraidon is humanlike in the slightest, it doesn't have a human head, and doesn't seem any more anthropomorphic than Charizard or Garchomp who I would tag as no_humans.

zetsubousensei said:

My main goal in creating this thread was to ultimately come up with a list of Pokemon that are never no humans when drawn official since it's something that I struggle to tag and recognize and if there was any list poor @Trouble_Windows wouldn't have to correct my tags as much.

A few more Pokémon I think could be added to that list:

• Alakazam = 1boy
• Mewtwo = 1other
• Gallade = 1boy
• Throh and Sawk = 1boy
• Hisuian Lilligant = 1girl
• Cinderace = 1other

There are definitely more Pokémon which could be added, but those were the ones that immediately came to mind.

Zalza said:

this kangaroo has been photoshopped to appear more muscular. look how smudgy its fur looks. this is not a natural kangaroo
EDIT: i was informed that roger the kangaroo is real. forgive me for causing confusion

Before I fall unconscious going to post the bulbapedia article listing pokemon by body shape specifically bipedal tailless and bipedal tailed which will probably have most of the other pokemon that might qualify for gender tagging maybe

BKaz20 said:

A few more Pokémon I think could be added to that list:

• Alakazam = 1boy
• Mewtwo = 1other
• Gallade = 1boy
• Throh and Sawk = 1boy
• Hisuian Lilligant = 1girl
• Cinderace = 1other

There are definitely more Pokémon which could be added, but those were the ones that immediately came to mind.

I usually also tag:

• Magearna = 1girl
• Bellossom = 1girl
• Mawile = 1other/1girl
• Deoxys = 1other
• Greninja = 1other
• Pheromosa = 1girl
• Sneasler = 1girl
• Armarouge/Ceruledge = 1other
• Zoroark = 1other
• Indeedee = whichever gender
• Floragato = 1other

There are some that I usually tag that are more borderline so I won't name them in this list. Some I usually tag 1other but if feminine enough in how they're drawn I'll tag 1girl, but I'm not opposed to making them 1girl by default

Trouble_Windows said:
List

I wouldn't tag hardly any of these with counters besides Mawile and Pheromosa.

Celesteela is one I specifically called out in the OP as not being human enough to warrent showing up in a 1girl search I can see the hair, but it's basically a giant bell. Others like Marshadow and Meowstic fall way more animal than human despite being bipedal imo.

zetsubousensei said:

I wouldn't tag hardly any of these with counters besides Mawile and Pheromosa.

Celesteela is one I specifically called out in the OP as not being human enough to warrent showing up in a 1girl search I can see the hair, but it's basically a giant bell. Others like Marshadow and Meowstic fall way more animal than human despite being bipedal imo.

Yeah, that's fair, I'll remove them since they're more ambiguous/borderline.

On-model Celesteela is not humanoid, no. It shouldn't be tagged with gender counters.

Meowstic, on the other hand, absolutely should. It's clearly an anthropomorphic humanoid cat.