Let's Talk about Gender-tagging for On-model Pokemon.

For a while I have been frustrated with the state of Pokemon gender tagging. In my humble opinion all of them with very few exceptions are magic dogs and should be largely no_humans but I'll grit my teeth and bear it for the 1other-ing of Lucario and the 1girl-ing of Mawile. What I can't stand is the inconsistency. Why are this Dusclops post #8463641 and this Kecleon post #3031535 1other? Why is Tapu Koko no_humans in post #4563529 and 1boy in post #4262989 and post #5958436. Are Kabutops and Golisopod really enough to make post #6861289 2others? Why would you tag Pancham as 1other post #5429077 when it's a cartoon bear?

The answer I always get when I ask is to tag "When it looks humanoid" and in my humble opinion with the exception of a few outliers a lot of Pokemon just don't look humanoid in the slightest even when bipedal. Sableye and Smeargle are not what I'd want to come up if I was using a gendertag search. Rillaboom is literally just a gorilla and not what I'd want in male_focus, nor would I want my 1girl search to bring up shoots of bamboo post #8803479.

I would like a guide on which Pokemon are gendered without any personification and would get the tag by default if we were tagging them in the game. I would also like consistency, that Tapu Koko above is a great example of some getting the tag and some no_humans even though they are all on-model.

Below is a (probably incomplete) list of some of the pokemon and the gender qualifiers they have been given without factoring in furrification/gijinka/personification, if they appear multiple times they were in multiple tags. The 1girl Pokemon are the most consistent since most people agree on Gardevoir, Lopunny, Mawile, ect looking feminine. The 1other ones are a disaster and the reason I'm making this thread.

• MALE: Blaziken, Buzzwole, Cinderace, Dewott, Gallade, Hitmonchan, Hypno, Incineroar, Indeedee (male), Intelion, Kadabra, Kingambit, Lucario, Machamp, Machoke, Meowstic (Male), Raboot, Rillaboom, Riolu, Tapu Koko, Tyrogue, Thundurus, Tornadus, Zeraora, Zorark

• FEMALE: Alcremie, Alolan Meowth, Buneary, Celebi, Celesteela, Diancie, Dolliv, Enamorus, Florges, Gardevoir, Hatterene, Hattrem, Lilligant, Lopunny, Magearna, Mawile, Meloetta, Meowstic (Female), Pheromosa, Pikachu Belle, Primarina, Roserade, Salazzle, Sneasel, Sneasler, Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, Tinkatink, Tinkaton, Tinkatuff

• OTHER: Alakazam, Armarouge, Audino, Banette, Bisharp, Blaziken, Braixen, Calyrex, Celebi, Ceruledge, Cinderace, Darkrai, Decidueye, Delphox, Denene, Deoxys, Dusclops, Flabébé, Floette, Floragato, Frogadier, Gholdengo, Golisopod, Greninja, Grimmsnarl, Grovyle, Hisuian Typhlosion, Hypno, Inteleon, Jirachi, Kabutops, Kingambit, Kommo-o, Kubfu, Lopunny, Lucario, Lurantis, Lycanroc (Midnight), Machop, Maractus, Marshadow, Mawile, Medicham, Meowscarada, Mewtwo, Mienfoo, Mienshao, Munkidori, Ogerpon, Okidogi, Pancham, Pawniard, Porygon, Ralts, Rillaboom, Riolu, Sableye, Scorbunny, Scizor, Simipour, Slurpuff, Smeargle, Sneasel, Sneasler, Throh, Toxtricity, Tyrogue, Urshifu, Uxie Weavile, Zangoose, Zeraora, Zoroark, Zygarde

zetsubousensei said:

Below is a (probably incomplete) list of some of the pokemon and the gender qualifiers they have been given without factoring in furrification/gijinka/personification, if they appear multiple times they were in multiple tags. The 1girl Pokemon are the most consistent since most people agree on Gardevoir, Lopunny, Mawile, ect looking feminine. The 1other ones are a disaster and the reason I'm making this thread.

• MALE: Blaziken, Buzzwole, Cinderace, Dewott, Gallade, Hitmonchan, Hypno, Incineroar, Indeedee (male), Intelion, Kadabra, Kingambit, Lucario, Machamp, Machoke, Meowstic (Male), Raboot, Rillaboom, Riolu, Tapu Koko, Tyrogue, Thundurus, Tornadus, Zeraora, Zorark

• FEMALE: Alcremie, Alolan Meowth, Buneary, Celebi, Celesteela, Diancie, Dolliv, Enamorus, Florges, Gardevoir, Hatterene, Hattrem, Lilligant, Lopunny, Magearna, Mawile, Meloetta, Meowstic (Female), Pheromosa, Pikachu Belle, Primarina, Roserade, Salazzle, Sneasel, Sneasler, Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele, Tinkatink, Tinkaton, Tinkatuff

• OTHER: Alakazam, Armarouge, Audino, Banette, Bisharp, Blaziken, Braixen, Calyrex, Celebi, Ceruledge, Cinderace, Darkrai, Decidueye, Delphox, Denene, Deoxys, Dusclops, Flabébé, Floette, Floragato, Frogadier, Gholdengo, Golisopod, Greninja, Grimmsnarl, Grovyle, Hisuian Typhlosion, Hypno, Inteleon, Jirachi, Kabutops, Kingambit, Kommo-o, Kubfu, Lopunny, Lucario, Lurantis, Lycanroc (Midnight), Machop, Maractus, Marshadow, Mawile, Medicham, Meowscarada, Mewtwo, Mienfoo, Mienshao, Munkidori, Ogerpon, Okidogi, Pancham, Pawniard, Porygon, Ralts, Rillaboom, Riolu, Sableye, Scorbunny, Scizor, Simipour, Slurpuff, Smeargle, Sneasel, Sneasler, Throh, Toxtricity, Tyrogue, Urshifu, Uxie Weavile, Zangoose, Zeraora, Zoroark, Zygarde

To clarify, this list was compiled by me, using only my uploads (I almost always tag Pokémon posts as no_humans, the count tags were added by other people), so the sample size is admittedly quite low. These categories also aren't always applied consistently for every species. As an example, six of my posts include Ralts, but only one has the 1other tag. Regardless, I do think this is an issue that needs addressing. Some kind of list of which Pokémon get which tags would be an incredibly useful resource for tagging my posts.

(Disregard what I said about the list being compiled by me. As OP mentioned below, it was edited from the initial list I made. The rest of what I said still stands, though.)

BKaz20 said:

To clarify, this list was compiled by me, using only my uploads (I almost always tag Pokémon posts as no_humans, the count tags were added by other people), so the sample size is admittedly quite low. These categories also aren't always consistently applied for every species. As an example, six of my posts include Ralts, but only one has the 1other tag. Regardless, I do think this is an issue that needs addressing. Some kind of list of which Pokémon get which tags would be an incredibly useful resource for tagging my posts.

I expanded it, but yes I was dmed by this user about the gender-tagging question and couldn't come up with a satisfactory answer which prompted me to make this thread out of frustration.

Personally, I don't think any Pokémon should be receiving 1(gender) tags, but I do have a question.

Assuming we do go with gendered tags for humanoid Pokémon, do explicitly-gendered Pokémon like those in Mystery Dungeon or in some of the anime movies (i.e. the mother Zoroark from that movie) get to override this? Or will Darkness/Sky/Time Grovyle for example still have to be tagged as 1other?

schule said:

Personally, I don't think any Pokémon should be receiving 1(gender) tags, but I do have a question.

Assuming we do go with gendered tags for humanoid Pokémon, do explicitly-gendered Pokémon like those in Mystery Dungeon or in some of the anime movies (i.e. the mother Zoroark from that movie) get to override this? Or will Darkness/Sky/Time Grovyle for example still have to be tagged as 1other?

Great question. The male Jirachi in Wish Maker is 1other in posts where he has been given a tag post #7891938. Male Mewtwo is both 1other post #8557243 and 1boy post #8375086, male Grovyle is also both 1boy post #6481142 and 1other post #7978549.

Yet more terrible inconsistency, again I think all of those should be no_humans, but if we are going to give them qualifiers it should probably be canon-tagged for the movie/game.

I would advocate for no gender tags if they're on-model. They're not singular characters with established genders (mono-gendered species not withstanding). If they don't display sexual characteristics (e.g. Gardevoir with breasts) then all I think they end up doing is complicating searches looking for human characters.

BUR #38413 has been rejected.

mass update jirachi solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update mewtwo solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update scizor solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans

Ok since I'm not the only one who thinks these shouldn't be gendered here's a BUR to gauge opinion. I'm not adding Lucario or any of the pokemon prone to Furrification, just a few safe searches which for sure don't have fringe cases.

zetsubousensei said:

BUR #38413 has been rejected.

mass update jirachi solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update mewtwo solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update scizor solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans

Ok since I'm not the only one who thinks these shouldn't be gendered here's a BUR to gauge opinion. I'm not adding Lucario or any of the pokemon prone to Furfification, just a few safe searches which for sure don't have fringe cases.

Typo in the third line; "personifcation"

Ylimegirl said:

Typo in the third line; "personifcation"

Fixed

I forgot to say, I also have a similar issue with the usage of certain other tags for pokemon, such as flat chest. Pokemon do not share human sexual characteristics. Gardevoir does not have breasts. Unless the chest is specifically being emphasized, it's just tag padding. There's no reason for things like on-model fully sfw kirlia to be tagged flat chest.

blindVigil said:

I forgot to say, I also have a similar issue with the usage of certain other tags for pokemon, such as flat chest. Pokemon do not share human sexual characteristics. Gardevoir does not have breasts. Unless the chest is specifically being emphasized, it's just tag padding. There's no reason for things like on-model fully sfw kirlia to be tagged flat chest.

I’ve also seen on-model Ralts and Kirlia get tagged with child occasionally. I’m guessing we don’t want this either, right?

Blank_User said:

I’ve also seen on-model Ralts and Kirlia get tagged with child occasionally. I’m guessing we don’t want this either, right?

post #8294681 Kirlia flat chest child.

I am less inclined to touch the Gardevoir line since I know a lot of people would want to see it in a 1girl search since it's distinctly feminine unlike, say post #8861159, but I would agree that unless it's sufficiently altered the base Pokemon should not be given flat chest or child. post #5382390 or post #5759604look fair to give a 1girl, flat_chest xyz.

zetsubousensei said:

BUR #38413 has been rejected.

mass update jirachi solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update mewtwo solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans
mass update scizor solo 1other -personification -> -1other no_humans

Ok since I'm not the only one who thinks these shouldn't be gendered here's a BUR to gauge opinion. I'm not adding Lucario or any of the pokemon prone to Furrification, just a few safe searches which for sure don't have fringe cases.

The only one of these three that has any merit at all is Jirachi, and even that one's nebulous. Mewtwo is clearly an anthropomorphic furry character; he's shaped like a person but with animal features. post #8370834 captures it well, but it's fairly blatant in most posts of him - two arms, two legs, and human proportions. The same holds true for Scizor, which is an anthropomorphised insect. See post #8896885: once again, it's pretty clear he's human-shaped.

Time and time again, I see these double standards touted specifically for Pokémon, and only Pokémon. "We shouldn't tag Pokémon with gender tags." "All Pokémon should be tagged with bestiality." "Pokémon shouldn't count against no_humans." Every time, it is conveniently ignored that the only reason people feel this way is because it's Pokémon. The games might treat the creatures as pets, but when it comes to Danbooru tagging, it doesn't matter what copyright a character comes from, or what their lore is - if they're human-shaped, then they're tagged as such. If Pochita and Denji swapped brains in the next chapter of Chainsaw Man and then someone drew fanart of Denji's mindswapped body having sex, we wouldn't tag that bestiality. Similarly, we wouldn't tag a post of Mewtwo, who is clearly bipedal and anthropomorphic, as no_humans just because you can catch him, wash him and make him fetch a ball in the Pokémon games.

If post #8195888 were revealed without its clothes as a Pokémon, it shouldn't suddenly be excluded from gender tags because of its copyright. It would still be furry, and it wouldn't be any less humanoid just because it was a Pokémon. Obviously shit like post #8463641 shouldn't be being tagged as 1other, but making a blanket exclusion that includes clearly humanoid Pokémon is just as stupid.

AngryZapdos said:

The only one of these three that has any merit at all is Jirachi, and even that one's nebulous. Mewtwo is clearly an anthropomorphic furry character; he's shaped like a person but with animal features. post #8370834 captures it well, but it's fairly blatant in most posts of him - two arms, two legs, and human proportions. The same holds true for Scizor, which is an anthropomorphised insect. See post #8896885: once again, it's pretty clear he's human-shaped.

Time and time again, I see these double standards touted specifically for Pokémon, and only Pokémon. "We shouldn't tag Pokémon with gender tags." "All Pokémon should be tagged with bestiality." "Pokémon shouldn't count against no_humans." Every time, it is conveniently ignored that the only reason people feel this way is because it's Pokémon. The games might treat the creatures as pets, but when it comes to Danbooru tagging, it doesn't matter what copyright a character comes from, or what their lore is - if they're human-shaped, then they're tagged as such. If Pochita and Denji swapped brains in the next chapter of Chainsaw Man and then someone drew fanart of Denji's mindswapped body having sex, we wouldn't tag that bestiality. Similarly, we wouldn't tag a post of Mewtwo, who is clearly bipedal and anthropomorphic, as no_humans just because you can catch him, wash him and make him fetch a ball in the Pokémon games.

If post #8195888 were revealed without its clothes as a Pokémon, it shouldn't suddenly be excluded from gender tags because of its copyright. It would still be furry, and it wouldn't be any less humanoid just because it was a Pokémon. Obviously shit like post #8463641 shouldn't be being tagged as 1other, but making a blanket exclusion that includes clearly humanoid Pokémon is just as stupid.

I don't underand how you can say that Scizor looks anthropomorphic in the slightest it's just a monster bug even in that post. It's not just the copyright these things just, don't even look humanoid, furry or not. Is Tapu Koko 1boy? Is Golisopod really 1other? If they were Yu-gi-oh! monsters I would tag them no_humans and the same is true here.

Mewtwo is closer to anthro, mainly because it looks less animal-like, but it's still inconsistently tagged, and that would lead into the question above of what tag do we even use for them? I don't think Mewtwo looks like a furry_male, but he canonically is. His posts are spread across 1other, 1boy, and no_humans at the moment. Again if it ia insisted that these need counter tags then I think we need a list of which ones would be tagged based soley on official art/sprites without any fan art shenanigans.

zetsubousensei said:

Fixed

"personficiation" (line 1 and 3) and "personfication" (line 2) are still typoes. You want "personification".

Ylimegirl said:

"personficiation" (line 1 and 3) and "personfication" (line 2) are still typoes. You want "personification".

Some of us are stupid :CatCry:

Thanks, is mainly to gauge opinion. I do think any changes would probably need to be manually done.

zetsubousensei said:

I don't underand how you can say that Scizor looks anthropomorphic in the slightest it's just a monster bug even in that post. It's not just the copyright these things just, don't even look humanoid, furry or not. Is Tapu Koko 1boy? Is Golisopod really 1other? If they were Yu-gi-oh! monsters I would tag them no_humans and the same is true here.

Scizor has two legs, two arms, a torso, a waist, and one head, all of which are (ignoring the abdomen tail) proportionally similar to a human's. I don't understand how you can't see the difference between Scizor and a bug that walks on six legs. Saying that they "don't even look humanoid, furry or not" is an oxymoron; if they're a furry, ie. an anthropomorphic animal character, then they're by definition humanoid. It's this kind of logic that leads to werewolf posts being tagged as bestiality.

Again if it ia insisted that these need counter tags then I think we need a list of which ones would be tagged based soley on official art/sprites without any fan art shenanigans.

The issue here is that some don't fit neatly into a single category. Take Koraidon, for instance. In his official art, post #5398073, he's clearly a bipedal human-shaped furry. But in other official art, post #5561551, he looks 100% like an animal running on all fours. As with many things on Danbooru, these grey areas mean we can't just throw blanket statements into a wiki and call it a day.

The bulk update request #38413 (forum #340867) has been rejected by @zetsubousensei.

AngryZapdos said:

Scizor has two legs, two arms, a torso, a waist, and one head, all of which are (ignoring the abdomen tail) proportionally similar to a human's. I don't understand how you can't see the difference between Scizor and a bug that walks on six legs. Saying that they "don't even look humanoid, furry or not" is an oxymoron; if they're a furry, ie. an anthropomorphic animal character, then they're by definition humanoid. It's this kind of logic that leads to werewolf posts being tagged as bestiality.

The issue here is that some don't fit neatly into a single category. Take Koraidon, for instance. In his official art, post #5398073, he's clearly a bipedal human-shaped furry. But in other official art, post #5561551, he looks 100% like an animal running on all fours. As with many things on Danbooru, these grey areas mean we can't just throw blanket statements into a wiki and call it a day.

Neither Scizor nor Koraidon are "human shaped", they are just bipedal non-birds. They're no more "human-shaped" than an actual, irl, dog walking on it's hind legs. You are litterally re-inventing platos featherless biped problem here. Koraidon dosen't even use his front limbs for picking up things does he? There's probably a term for it but the best answer is what e621, actual furry site, would have tagged as "semi_anthro". Yes, in the proper dictionary defiition of the word that is still anthropomorphic, but so is the east wind. It's just about having human attributes at all.

This is exasperated I think by the no humans tag still having that misleading name.

I like furries and non-human humanoids, and I also like no humans posts... I want to see Lucario when I'm searching for furry characters. I don't want to see Lucario or Gardevoir or Magearna or Meowscarada or whoever else when I'm looking at no humans for scenery and animals.

Humanoid body shape is the easiest and least arbitrary thing to go off here - everyone knows what a humanoid is. They are bipedal with shoulders that are built differently than those of quadrupeds or even naturally bipedal animals - it's most apparent when you compare a humanoid on all fours to a quadruped rearing, like post #7579909. Both of them look like their upper bodies are not meant for that stance.

I tag what I see, so when I tag Pokemon like this, most of the time it's going to be 1other because they're completely androgynous-looking. But it's not a "species X = gender Y" scenario, they should be tagged according to the image and how they were drawn. Sometimes Braixen is drawn overtly feminine, sometimes it's drawn in a more ambiguous way. Either way I would not call it an animal in the same way I would call Fennekin or Pikachu an animal.

Personally I wouldn't have tagged post #6861289 as 2others. I don't think I'd tag Koraidon as furry, either, and that's coming from someone who is generally pro-gender tagging on Pokemon and is probably more liberal with the count tags than others here.

Either way, I hope we can all work together to find a solution here. I think this is kind of a conflict of interest between people who are looking for characters like these and people who aren't.