Posted under Tags
imo links should probably be accurately titled to where it will send you (i.e. a link that says #TouhouProject shouldn't send you to the #東方project link, as many artists also post in #TouhouProject); not sure what the best method of achieving that while also translating the meaning of hashtags would be however
i have no personal investment in this topic, nor do i particularly care about the outcome, however, perhaps the strategy could be always adding hashtag translations as translation notes
as an example, post #8945110's original commentary reads as:
while translated commentary would read as:
sinfulporcupine said:
i have no personal investment in this topic, nor do i particularly care about the outcome, however, perhaps the strategy could be always adding hashtag translations as translation notes
as an example, post #8945110's original commentary reads as:
while translated commentary would read as:
Honestly, I'd just stop touching posts that include hashtags to avoid the hassle.
Also, may I suggest that we instead use post #5570454 as our example, because that's a really good illustration of exactly what the problem here is.
Personally, I see a bunch of English-readable tags and a bunch of equivalent Japanese tags. There's no Japanese tag without an English equivalent, so there's nothing that an English-only American is missing out on. But also, the commentary is otherwise entirely in English (though untagged as of me writing this, feel free to tag if you like) and so bilingual commentary feels inappropriate here.
As I see it, our options are:
1. Leave as-is and call this good to tag as commentary <- I vote for this
2. Translate all the tags, even though that doubles them up and you potentially run into scenarios where the commentary on an image reads "#DungeonMeshi #DungeonMeshi #DungeonMeshi #DungeonMeshi" with the side effect that only one of those will actually take you to the search results for #DungeonMeshi and the other three linking to the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean equivalents, which is what tamuraakemi was complaining of above
3. Do as sinfulporcupine suggests and add translation notes for all the Japanese tags, addressing tamuraakemi and making everything readable, but discouraging at least myself from bothering at all
4. ???
Please let me know if you can think of a 4th option, and note that this is all purely for circumstances where there's at least one English-readable equivalent of every hashtag present.
sinfulporcupine said:
i have no personal investment in this topic, nor do i particularly care about the outcome, however, perhaps the strategy could be always adding hashtag translations as translation notes
as an example, post #8945110's original commentary reads as:
while translated commentary would read as:
This would be a good "vanilla" solution, maybe leave out the # in the [tn] would make it read a bit cleaner. There's also some slightly dubious methods like HTML's <ruby> tag but having the translations inline is probably better for simplicty sake.
definitelysleeping said:
Honestly, I'd just stop touching posts that include hashtags to avoid the hassle.
Also, may I suggest that we instead use post #5570454 as our example, because that's a really good illustration of exactly what the problem here is.
Personally, I see a bunch of English-readable tags and a bunch of equivalent Japanese tags. There's no Japanese tag without an English equivalent, so there's nothing that an English-only American is missing out on. But also, the commentary is otherwise entirely in English (though untagged as of me writing this, feel free to tag if you like) and so bilingual commentary feels inappropriate here.
[...]
1. Leave as-is and call this good to tag as commentary <- I vote for this
[...]
and how is a non-japanese speaker supposed to tell those are the exact same? to look at other languages, would you be able to tell that post #8930595's commentary:
🦊🐦⬛
ฉันรักโม่เจียว~
is the same ship's name twice? or post #8847344's commentary,
would you be able to tell that the last tag is "ukrart" (presumably short for "ukrainian art"), and not the game's title?
moreover, japanese tags can be verbose with no clear equivalent as well. post #8936358 has "#これを見た人はセーラー服をTLに放流しよう", which google translate translates to "If you see this, let's post sailor suits on TL!". post #8932697 has "#このタグを見た人は自分の絵柄のちっぱいを見せる", which google translate translates to "People who see this tag will show their own small breasts" (neither translations appear to be accurate, but both tags are for challenges that involve posting what you already have drawn that matches the topic of the tag). post #8940750 has "#Dグレ版深夜の真剣お絵描き60分一本勝負", machine-translated to "D Gray Man version of late-night serious drawing 60-minute one-off". none of those posts have alternate english tags included
sinfulporcupine said:
and how is a non-japanese speaker supposed to tell those are the exact same? to look at other languages, would you be able to tell that post #8930595's commentary:
is the same ship's name twice? or post #8847344's commentary,
would you be able to tell that the last tag is "ukrart" (presumably short for "ukrainian art"), and not the game's title?
moreover, japanese tags can be verbose with no clear equivalent as well. post #8936358 has "#これを見た人はセーラー服をTLに放流しよう", which google translate translates to "If you see this, let's post sailor suits on TL!". post #8932697 has "#このタグを見た人は自分の絵柄のちっぱいを見せる", which google translate translates to "People who see this tag will show their own small breasts" (neither translations appear to be accurate, but both tags are for challenges that involve posting what you already have drawn that matches the topic of the tag). post #8940750 has "#Dグレ版深夜の真剣お絵描き60分一本勝負", machine-translated to "D Gray Man version of late-night serious drawing 60-minute one-off". none of those posts have alternate english tags included
Okay, so, looking at your examples:
1. post #8930595 is currently tagged commentary request, meaning it is not translated, so I would have no expectation about the hashtags.
2. post #8847344 is not tagged with respect to commentary at all, so again, I have no expectation.
3. Your final set of examples have NO English hashtags, and thus wouldn't be covered by the scenarios I described above.
In the first case, if the rest of the commentary were translated and the post tagged commentary, I would simply trust that the translator felt there was nothing else worth translating, meaning that 'โม่เจียว' most likely means or is equivalent to 'mozeqiu'. I could be entirely mistaken. For a great deal many existing posts, there are untranslated hashtags where this is the case, similar to other examples, but the standard I am supporting is basically equivalent to best practice for bilingual commentary, where users have to simply trust that the translator was able to read both texts fully and there was nothing missing from the English text.
In the second, I don't support leaving that tag untranslated, as there's no English equivalent. Best practice would be to translate it, and I believe Unbreakable at least is in agreement with me on this one, per a Discord discussion. What's up for discussion is whether to require translating that last tag, which current guidance does not require, but I personally support translating it, so I'm good either way unless we decide it should stay untranslated.
In the final set of examples, these should all be translated. Just flat out, these are the exact reason why the BUR failed, so yeah, they need to be translated, even though the guidance does not require that. (Also, I'd like to note that two of them have commentary request tagged, and IMO, translators should always translate those before tagging as commentary, even when there's only hashtags.)
sinfulporcupine said:
i have no personal investment in this topic, nor do i particularly care about the outcome, however, perhaps the strategy could be always adding hashtag translations as translation notes
as an example, post #8945110's original commentary reads as:
while translated commentary would read as:
I strongly dislike this option, it really reeks of those old "Note: Keikaku means plan" translations and also looks ugly.
Unbreakable said:
I strongly dislike this option, it really reeks of those old "Note: Keikaku means plan" translations and also looks ugly.
Agreed on the style issue, but also very finicky for translators, and I would really like people to keep us in mind for discussions like this, especially when someone has no personal investment. I don't know who else specializes in commentary translations as much as I have been doing, but I would really appreciate it if we could get feedback from people with more experience than me, since I've only been doing it for 2.5 months and sit at just over 6k not including my own posts. There's gotta be a few people with double or triple that number if not more.
Okay, since this discussion could easily have implications for *all* commentary, I'd like to look at an example that has hashtags but isn't hashtag-only commentary: post #8535414.
I drew Zelda / ゼルダ #ゼルダの伝説 #TearsOfTheKingdom #Zelda Delicious in Hyrule
So, that's enough Japanese to tag as mixed-language commentary, especially since it falls outside the hashtags. But bilingual commentary says "the same text in two different languages", so that doesn't seem to apply, yet there's no reason to translate 'ゼルダ', as a non-Japanese speaker should be able to tell from context that the artist has included both the English and Japanese names for the character.
So the only real question is: do we want best practices/guidance to be for '#ゼルダの伝説' to need to be translated to #LegendOfZelda in order to tag this post as commentary? Personally, I feel that '#TearsOfTheKingdom' and '#Zelda' convey that information sufficiently that it's not needed, but that's me.
(Also, I went ahead and tagged it as commentary anyway, since that's what current guidance states to do.)
Personally, I have pretty much always translated hashtags while translating commentary, and I don't feel leaving them untranslated is helpful to anyone. If they want to search by the original tags, they can always click the links, or see "Original". If the translated list results in multiple tags with the same name (because they started in different languages), I don't see that as harmful.
Shinjidude said:
Personally, I have pretty much always translated hashtags while translating commentary, and I don't feel leaving them untranslated is helpful to anyone. If they want to search by the original tags, they can always click the links, or see "Original". If the translated list results in multiple tags with the same name (because they started in different languages), I don't see that as harmful.
Agree with this. It's better to translate then not translate, since most people cannot understand moon runes or the other arcane languages.
Also, for myself, when multiple languages exist, I qualify the hashtags.
For example
#garupan #ガルパン
becomes
#garupan #garupan(jp)
Shinjidude said:
Personally, I have pretty much always translated hashtags while translating commentary, and I don't feel leaving them untranslated is helpful to anyone. If they want to search by the original tags, they can always click the links, or see "Original". If the translated list results in multiple tags with the same name (because they started in different languages), I don't see that as harmful.
+1. I always do this too.
Shinjidude said:
Personally, I have pretty much always translated hashtags while translating commentary, and I don't feel leaving them untranslated is helpful to anyone. If they want to search by the original tags, they can always click the links, or see "Original". If the translated list results in multiple tags with the same name (because they started in different languages), I don't see that as harmful.
On the flipside, then:
If the only untranslated portions of a commentary are meta, such as hashtags or mentions, then tag it with commentary and not partial commentary or commentary request.
Do you think this line from the wiki should be changed, or left as is? If hashtag only commentary needs to be translated in order to be tagged commentary, then why shouldn't untranslated hashtags with text warrant being tagged partial commentary, or commentary request?
I'm glad to hear from users like @definitelysleeping who have more of a personal investment in how commentary is tagged. For myself, I'm not speaking from experience, and the reason I raised the topic again is just because of what I see as a contradiction in the logic behind the policy. I'm not personally married to either solution (implying to commentary or just editing the wiki guideline), but whatever the outcome, I would like to see a choice made.
kimonomiko said:
Do you think this line from the wiki should be changed, or left as is? If hashtag only commentary needs to be translated in order to be tagged commentary, then why shouldn't untranslated hashtags with text warrant being tagged partial commentary, or commentary request?
I don't have a strong opinion on this, I can see either direction being acceptable. The body of the commentary is the more important part to be translated compared to the hashtags. Leaving commentary request off of a hashtag-only commentary doesn't seem particularly inappropriate to me.
Personally, again, I'd just translate it all at once and it becomes a non-issue since I wouldn't need partial commentary or commentary request anymore anyway.
I think the main issue is that if we don't change the wiki, then there's no reason to not approve the proposed BUR. If we don't want hashtag-only commentary to imply commentary, then the wiki should be changed to reflect some minimum translation standard. Otherwise, we should let the BUR be implemented and then each have our own higher standards living alongside those who would tag commentary when none of the hashtags have been translated.
So first we should decide on whether to make a change, and then we can decide which standard is best if we choose change.
Nobody else has any input on this? Can we at least get some sort of agreement on whether to update the guidance in the Wiki?
#DungeonMeshi #迷宮飯 #ダンジョン飯
Should this be tagged as commentary request and translated to read "#DungeonMeshi #DungeonMeshi #DungeonMeshi"? Should it be tagged as multilingual commentary + chinese commentary and left as is, letting users see the tag and understand it to mean that all three tags say the same thing? Should it only be tagged as commentary because there's nothing but hashtags?
If option 1, then we need to update the wiki for commentary accordingly.
If option 2, then we should probably update some of the wikis for clarification, but that's fine.
If option 3, then we need to remake the implication and approve it. If you object because not all hashtags are just the copyright, that doesn't matter, just pretend that the three hashtags say something meaningful like 'I like turtles!' and ask the questions again to see where you land.
And then we have option 4 where we state that users can pick any of those three options at their discretion. Option 4 is effectively what we have now, and users are not picking which option based on the content of the commentary, so it's not like the discretion means that 'important' information gets translated. This feels like the worst of all options, and why I'd really like us to just pick a standard, even if it's not a standard I like.
