Posted under Tags
BUR #31732 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
nuke micomet_(hololive)
nuke orio_(hololive)
nuke lvex_(nijisanji)
nuke uisupi_(nijisanji)
nuke chronoir
nuke togabito_(nijisanji)
nuke benizuwaigani_(nijisanji)
nuke majomarity_(nijisanji)
My personal thoughts are eh on this one but according to topic #26691 duo unit tags aren't considered very useful as you can use a two tag search instead. If so, then these unit tags should be nuked.
I'm strongly against this course of action since all of them are official units within their respective agencies (or at the very least semi-official with a few singles/covers credited to them as duo acts). Not to mention some of them have matching official alternate costumes by their members that would not make sense if there is no context given in advance, and ChroNoiR is the worst offender of the bunch for having at least three of these "pair OACs".
To reiterate what ICJ said on the linked thread:
If they're actual unit names used in the franchise, then I see no reason to nuke them outright, especially not because they only consist of 2 characters.
In this case, it's actual unit names in an actual talent agency.
Let me also point out one thing you forgot: by that logic, two particular Love Live! duo tags (Saint Snow and Diverdiva) should also be nuked. And if I were to be extreme in that logic by saying "there has to be at least three to warrant a tag", then LazuLight, Obsydia, MeIFu, and TTT on the Nijisanji side should also be nuked since they're technically duo acts now that one out of three in each group had left.
I don't see how those two can get away with such but official vtuber duos (and the Idolmaster ones from the linked topic) can't. You're basically shooting a lot of users at their feet by forcing them to do a more tedious search alternative, especially the more famous ones like MiComet and ChroNoiR. If you yourself are ambivalent on this course of action before making this BUR then you should not have tried.
ArcieA said:
I'm strongly against this course of action since all of them are official units within their respective agencies (or at the very least semi-official with a few singles/covers credited to them as duo acts). Not to mention some of them have matching official alternate costumes by their members that would not make sense if there is no context given in advance, and ChroNoiR is the worst offender of the bunch for having at least three of these "pair OACs".
To reiterate what ICJ said on the linked thread:
In this case, it's actual unit names in an actual talent agency.
Let me also point out one thing you forgot: by that logic, two particular Love Live! duo tags (Saint Snow and Diverdiva) should also be nuked. And if I were to be extreme in that logic by saying "there has to be at least three to warrant a tag", then LazuLight, Obsydia, MeIFu, and TTT on the Nijisanji side should also be nuked since they're technically duo acts now that one out of three in each group had left.
I don't see how those two can get away with such but official vtuber duos (and the Idolmaster ones from the linked topic) can't. You're basically shooting a lot of users at their feet by forcing them to do a more tedious search alternative, especially the more famous ones like MiComet and ChroNoiR. If you yourself are ambivalent on this course of action before making this BUR then you should not have tried.
As far as I know, the units that were nuked in the linked BUR were also official units. Typically trio and above unit tags aren't used in an image if only depicting two of the members, even if a member graduates and brings them down to a duo. I've even removed images like post #7879800 from the Obsydia tag following that logic. I'm not personally into Love Live but if a tagger more knowledgeable about that franchise thinks those tags should be nuked following in the footsteps of this BUR then I wouldn't complain.
Also, I think it's better to make a BUR and gain outside opinions on something I'm not sure about then to completely ignore it.
Edit: I will say that I do think these tags could have use if their usage criteria was narrowed. These tags have a tendency to collect images that don't reference the unit in any way other then them being in the same image like post #4674149. If the posts in these tags were only ones that specifically reference the group in the image like post #7488628, which has the name of the duo, or post #4177288, which has them wearing the matching outfits, then these tags would be less contestable.
Updated
ArcieA said:
Not to mention some of them have matching official alternate costumes by their members that would not make sense if there is no context given in advance, and ChroNoiR is the worst offender of the bunch for having at least three of these "pair OACs".
How is this even relevant? The outfits should have their own tags, and those tags' wikis can explain the context of two characters having matching outfits. Which isn't even needed. You don't need an explanation for two characters having matching outfits. This such a non-argument. The existence of a random gen tag isn't going to provide that context, anyway. If I see chronoir in the tag list, I'm not going to have any idea what that is without reading its wiki, and anything its wiki says about matching outfits could be just as well mentioned in the wikis for the outfits' own tags, which is where people should be going to find that information anyway.
Let me also point out one thing you forgot: by that logic, two particular Love Live! duo tags (Saint Snow and Diverdiva) should also be nuked.
Yeah, they should be. They still exist because they were overlooked when NNT approved a bunch of BURs nuking duo tags in the thread you linked. Bad faith argument. Existing tags that need to be nuked doesn't disprove that similar tags also deserve to be nuked.
And if I were to be extreme in that logic by saying "there has to be at least three to warrant a tag", then LazuLight, Obsydia, MeIFu, and TTT on the Nijisanji side should also be nuked since they're technically duo acts now that one out of three in each group had left.
Bad faith argument: Electric Boogaloo. Just because one member is no longer active doesn't mean artists are suddenly incapable of depicting all three members together, and the wikis specifically say it requires all three in the image, not all three existing*, so nothing about the tags have changed. What even is this point? That's not taking to an extreme, that's just being disingenuous.
* Except for meifu (nijisanji) where you specifically wrote that it was okay not to include melissa kinrenka
Please, continue linking obscure duo tags. It's very helpful for cleaning up tag bloat.
Speak of the devil.
I put up the Love Live BUR in the original linked thread just so it's fair. What will remain unfair is the fact that in such a scenario involving a school idol cast of three main groups, one would have to go simply because of a "must-have-three" rule. That's counter-intuitive to archival. A better option would be to just let this slide and allow duo gentags since this is clearly a unique thing for idol/talent franchises.
Also, Wispy's proposal of "let's reserve these tags for when they explicitly feature the duo name or are wearing their duo costumes" has basis in what blind said in the other thread:
If they at least required specifically depicting the duo as an idol group, that would be something.
That can also be an option since this might get heated later on, but imho we should just accept the fact that these tags should exist because they're part of what makes these franchises distinct. A possible safeguard would be to explicitly say that this should only apply to idol/vtuber franchises and IRL duos, like ClaRis and Daft Punk, and not for anything else. I'm getting tired of having to argue in these archival/site-keeping matters.
Updated
A tag that's just "char A and char B depicted together" is pure padding. I don't know why these are being defended/encouraged when they're easily searchable on their own. Just because something is official doesn't mean we need a tag for it, especially if it encourages other garbage to follow suit. What's next, a komeiji_twins tag for whenever Satori and Koishi are depicted together? A laiocille tag for Laios x Marcille posts? Like it or not, these existing duo group tags are only two steps away from personal ship tags, official or not.
I'll admit I've never liked group tags. If it were up to me they'd all be nuked, but some people really seem to like them so I begrudgingly ignore them. However, when they're a group of literally just two people, the complete and utter superfluousness of it all is just too much. These duo tags need to go.
AngryZapdos said:
A tag that's just "char A and char B depicted together" is pure padding. I don't know why these are being defended/encouraged when they're easily searchable on their own. Just because something is official doesn't mean we need a tag for it, especially if it encourages other garbage to follow suit. What's next, a komeiji_twins tag for whenever Satori and Koishi are depicted together? A laiocille tag for Laios x Marcille posts? Like it or not, these existing duo group tags are only two steps away from personal ship tags, official or not.
I'll admit I've never liked group tags. If it were up to me they'd all be nuked, but some people really seem to like them so I begrudgingly ignore them. However, when they're a group of literally just two people, the complete and utter superfluousness of it all is just too much. These duo tags need to go.
Forcing users (especially ordinary non-logged-in ones and regular) to do two-tag searching is more cumbersome. Take DiverDiva, for example from the other thread: if you wanted to search arts of Asaka Karin and Miyashita Ai together, you'd be forcing us to do something like asaka_karin 2girls or miyashita_ai asaka_karin or something, with no filter on whether or not you'll also get unintended arts in the process because (at least for non-logged and regulars) you're limited to two tags. At least this makes searchability easier for the greatest possible number of users. Also,
A possible safeguard would be to explicitly say that this should only apply to idol/vtuber franchises and IRL duos, like ClaRis and Daft Punk, and not for anything else.
Enforcing it and keeping tabs on which shouldn't be and which should be wouldn't be any more troublesome. If you wanted a better target for tag bloat cleanup, look no further than all the song gentags on the Love Live side of things. That's another can of worms imho.
ArcieA said:
Forcing users (especially ordinary non-logged-in ones and regular) to do two-tag searching is more cumbersome. Take DiverDiva, for example from the other thread: if you wanted to search arts of Asaka Karin and Miyashita Ai together, you'd be forcing us to do something like
asaka_karin 2girlsormiyashita_ai asaka_karinor something, with no filter on whether or not you'll also get unintended arts in the process. At least this makes searchability easier for the greatest possible number of users. Also,Enforcing it and keeping tabs on which shouldn't be and which should be wouldn't be any more troublesome.
But two tag searches are required for almost every copyright. If I want to search for posts of the twin from Vocaloid I'm going to need to search Kagamine Rin and Kagamine Len or one of their names and twins and I'll still get art that isn't just the two of them and is group shots.
Its a limitation of a two tag search and it extends to all copyrights. Character A + Character B will almost always give the desired results, you'll just get a few false positives.
ArcieA said:
Forcing users (especially ordinary non-logged-in ones and regular) to do two-tag searching is more cumbersome. Take DiverDiva, for example from the other thread: if you wanted to search arts of Asaka Karin and Miyashita Ai together, you'd be forcing us to do something like
asaka_karin 2girlsormiyashita_ai asaka_karinor something, with no filter on whether or not you'll also get unintended arts in the process because (at least for non-logged and regulars) you're limited to two tags.
Yes, you'd be forced to use two tags instead of one, just like literally everyone else searching for more than one character has been doing for over 15 years. As zetsubousensei mentioned, this is simply how the current tagging system works.
A possible safeguard would be to explicitly say that this should only apply to idol/vtuber franchises and IRL duos, like ClaRis and Daft Punk, and not for anything else.
Vtubers and idols aren't special. They're just like the tens of thousands of other characters on Danbooru; they don't get their own set of rules that allows them and only them to receive useless padding tags. Even if we did go down that route, good luck trying to enforce it. Users are just going to see these duo tags and assume they're free to make their own duo tags about whatever they want.
If you don't want false positives, add 2girls to the search.
Sakura_Miko Hoshimachi_Suisei 2girls
This search is almost identical to using micomet (hololive).
Can Members do this? No.
Do we need make a tag for every basic search a Member can't do? Also no.
Hololive faces the issue of searches being polluted by 3+ character posts more so than most copyrights, and that search is still almost 2/3rds of Sakura_Miko Hoshimachi_Suisei. You can find micomet posts just fine without the duo tag, and for the people who can use three tags, it's not "tedious" to perform that 2girls search. Claims to the contrary are being disingenuous.
After seeing post #6202322 in the micomet (hololive) tag, I have changed my mind from indifference to outright dislike of these tags. This is not an image representing the idea of them as a duo in anyway. I'm not even sure if that pink haired girl down there is actually Miko. This is pure and utter tag padding. Having images like post #6733212, post #6852522, post #6597304 and post #6538666 in this tag is ridiculous. This tag isn't even just being used as a sakura_miko hoshimachi_suisei 2girls search when images like post #8211562 are also in there proving that it's being added to any image where the two of them happen to be near each other.
I will also note that post #8211562 has the tag fubumicomet (hololive) which was made just last night and seems to be a completely fan made and not official in any way, shape or form group considering the low amount of results when looking the name up. I swear I'm going to wake up tomorrow and see festivaluna and crossick (nijisanji) tags made.
wispydreamer said:
I will also note that post #8211562 has the tag fubumicomet (hololive) which was made just last night and seems to be a completely fan made and not official in any way, shape or form group considering the low amount of results when looking the name up. I swear I'm going to wake up tomorrow and see festivaluna and crossick (nijisanji) tags made.
For the record, I didn't make and also don't like the "FubuMiComet" tag because it's not official, unlike MiComet, and was probably thought of on a whim as a backup in case the main MiComet tag does get nuked. You can manually clean up that tag if you want.
And if it's any better, I specifically refused to make a Crossick tag (or BaeRyS, NoeFlare, TakaMori, or any other pair tag that seems more like a fans' yuri/yaoi ship, for that matter) because they exist more for content creation and laughs. MiComet and OriO are special cases since although they started in the same vein as the examples I mentioned, they ultimately evolved into official-esque duo units with some song covers/original duet singles under the name. ChroNoiR (which wasn't even a tag I made) was decided by Nijisanji management to be a duo combining their two highest-subbed male talents into an idol duo. As for the other Nijisanji duo tags, unfortunately for you (and for us, as well), that's just how Nijisanji went with their 2019 debuts before they switched to the "at least three" rule. I didn't make their rules.
I made most of these group tags (note: most being the key word: some tags like ChroNoiR and trio ones like Flutoitoi and Le Jouet were already made before I stepped in) for the express purposes of archival, keeping track of who were in which groups much better than the main niji wiki page we have, and allowing users to enjoy better searchability of these groups.
If you ask me any further on this matter, I'm more of "we keep these for archival purposes, and find out a solution that would make this more bearable". Like what was said by someone else on the other topic,
Unless there's a specific reason to do so, BUR (about group tags) should be all-or-nothing.
And I now agree with that sentiment with Zap: if we can't treat idol and duo tags equally with trio/quartet/multi-member group tags simply because of an arbitrarily-set "rule" (which idek where that even came from), we'd might as well just ban all group gentags from danbooru. While I understand the concern that this may bloat tag numbers in a post unnecessarily, the fact remains that it still wouldn't look fair for them when other group tags get to stay and you could do something like gawr_gura 5_girls in lieu of holoMyth. As for the worst-case scenario argument of Zap that it would lead to fan ship tags in ordinary anime/manga/game series,
What's next, a komeiji_twins tag for whenever Satori and Koishi are depicted together? A laiocille tag for Laios x Marcille posts? Like it or not, these existing duo group tags are only two steps away from personal ship tags, official or not.
...the anime idol and vtuber scene has more in common in the real-life idol and music scene where pair acts are more frequent and are even decided by the agencies themselves for fun and profit (e.g. ClariS and Daft Punk). Apologies, but that's just the way that side of the entertainment industry is. A derivative or offshoot of the IRL idol scene would invariably carry over its pros and cons. So it's really either we accept this as fact and set this aside (and hopefully find a solution that would be at least doable and sensible), or we just torch every group tag and run. All or nothing.
ArcieA said:
...the anime idol and vtuber scene has more in common in the real-life idol and music scene where pair acts are more frequent and are even decided by the agencies themselves for fun and profit (e.g. ClariS and Daft Punk). Apologies, but that's just the way that side of the entertainment industry is. A derivative or offshoot of the IRL idol scene would invariably carry over its pros and cons. So it's really either we accept this as fact and set this aside (and hopefully find a solution that would be at least doable and sensible), or we just torch every group tag and run. All or nothing.
This is a bad comparison though because those duo tags are acting as the copyright not gentags. Daft Punk isn't even a comperable tag because its not replacement for a two tag search and has Interstella art in it.
I'm full torch here, and the fact that "ship" tags keep getting made just cements my feeling that these are not only pointless padding, but actively confusing people enough to where they either can't distinguish the official from fandom or don't care.
The bulk update request #31732 (forum #308633) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
BUR #31799 has been rejected.
nuke holomyth
nuke holocouncil
nuke holoadvent
nuke holojustice
nuke hololive_gamers
nuke hololive_fantasy
nuke holoforce
nuke holofive
nuke nepolabo
nuke holox
nuke regloss_(hololive)
nuke 0th_generation_(hololive)
nuke 1st_generation_(hololive)
nuke 2nd_generation_(hololive)
nuke area_15
nuke holoro
nuke holoh3roes
Since the last reply agreed on a "torch everything and run", let's start off with the hololive tags first (first part). Whoever made the tags in the first place should have thought twice on doing this for findability's sake. Also the ReGloss part is almost equal to hololive Dev_Is. If that's what you really want, to be "all-or-nothing" regarding group tags, fine.
There's not much for me to say here, we don't have duo tags because they're equivalent with two tag searches and always end up being completely padding. If we started allowing this kind of thing we'd end up with every single vtuber, gacha and fan pairing in existence getting a similar tag. There'd be no end of it.
ArcieA said:
Since the last reply agreed on a "torch everything and run", let's start off with the hololive tags first (first part). Whoever made the tags in the first place should have thought twice on doing this for findability's sake. Also the ReGloss part is almost equal to hololive Dev_Is. If that's what you really want, to be "all-or-nothing" regarding group tags, fine.
Group tags are fine to keep. There's a big difference between searching for two characters and searching for five.
nonamethanks said:
There's not much for me to say here, we don't have duo tags because they're equivalent with two tag searches and always end up being completely padding. If we started allowing this kind of thing we'd end up with every single vtuber, gacha and fan pairing in existence getting a similar tag. There'd be no end of it.
Even if they're full-on actual units? That rule seems unfair to other group tags simply because of how our tagging system works and user tag behavior. It's more of a "too disinclined to find a way to mitigate the risks after the act". Also, my question of "where and what forum topic did the rule come from" wasn't answered. I saw the previous FuwaMoco discussion that started the IMAS discussion that led to this, but it doesn't go back enough.
nonamethanks said:
Group tags are fine to keep. There's a big difference between searching for two characters and searching for five.
Not clearly with the example that I made. One can search 5girls on Gura and still have a large percentage of Myth arts, which wouldn't be any different than searching sakura_miko hoshimachi_suisei for MiComet. Because this is an affront to my honest efforts to make the search experience more easier.
The bulk update request #31799 (forum #308863) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.
