Should character wikis be cleared out of the "typical tags" describing their appearance?

Most of the time, they seem to needlessly bloat their wiki page with walls of text, and are often unneeded if one knows what the tags are by looking at the image in question. For example, I do not even know who the character in post #7366624 and post #6031168 is when I uploaded the posts, but even though I can't look up the character's wiki, I never struggled at all with tagging up her appearance since I'm just going by what I see in the image, making the character's tag list describing her appearance unneccesary.

These are often seem to be used as crutches for people to tag the character's physical appearance (especially when the "wiki tag" feature was still active), even though it is largely unnecessary if (as mentioned before) you're tagging based on what you see in the image. Additionally, these "typical tag" sections are sometimes written by users who have no clue how to use certain tags correctly, which leads to the wiki misleading other users into misusing tags (ie. Raiden and Shenhe's wiki having braided ponytail in their "tagging" section of their wiki, or the jackets of some vtubers being incorrectly called "off-shoulder jackets", resulting in mistags).

The current wiki format for Shenhe (as an example) is simplified to just describing who she is and has the "typical tags" list removed, which I think all character pages should follow the same format. Additionally, with the addition of adding thumbnails to wiki pages, we no longer need a dump of the character's "typical tags" to give an idea of what their "default" appearance looks like.

Echoing my thoughts from the Discord; I completely agree. I also write character wikis in the same way as the Shenhe wiki example linked. Two sentences generally; one to clarify their copyright or root character (if it's a subordinate character tag) and a very brief sentence on their background.

I'm not looking at Danbooru wikis to understand a character's depth; I'm looking for a basic understanding of where to get them from. I'm also not looking at character wikis especially for how to tag a character; sometimes a character can vary depending on artist depictions such as colours, alternate costumes and so on. Appearance tags are too bloaty and unnecessary. The rule of thumb is to tag what you see and appearance headings are not a cheat code for how to tag an image. They don't help.

I'm not reading a text wall. Wikis should make use of a "see also" heading and link an official or otherwise highly-regarded wiki for character information.

Yes. If you see a wall of appearance-related tags in a wiki, remove and replace them with an embedded example post. They were somewhat tolerable when we didn't have post embeds, but now that we do, they have no leg to stand on and are nothing more than wiki bloat.

Those lists (as long as they're not formatted as, well, lists but rather proper sentences) often mention more niche tags that are easier to miss if you don't know they exist. Sure, everyone can tell when a character is wearing a black shirt or white shorts, but stuff like aiguillettes, epaulettes, oxfords, lapels, high-low skirts and so on are harder if you're not already into fashion. Taglists can give one an easy reference point.

Additionally, if those are to be nuked... what would be left to be displayed in character wikis? Danboorians despise trivia like blood types, I've seen so many wikis trimmed of that. Might as well nuke all character wikis, why not. Or let's go further, no need for any wiki ever. Come on.

I agree, they are redundant with related tags and encourage bad tagging practices, which is why wiki gentag suggestions were removed from the related tags months ago.

In my personal opinion the huge lists of tags are ugly and just invites mindless copy pasting, listing a couple of tags about hard to find tags and easily confused things is fine. Having a trivia/personality section isn't the worst thing in the world but it shouldn't dwarf the other part of the wiki, and it should generally be stuff that's useful for tagging.

I brought up the same point in topic #27374. Here's a counterargument from that thread:

blindVigil said:

I would keep the physical description bits, personally. Unless you can guarantee that every single example image is fully tagged and 100% accurate with every applicable tag, and even in such a case, a list of the most commonly relevant tags is still useful as a quick guide if you aren't sure which tags to use, rather than needing to open another post (potentially multiple) or ask in the forums for an answer that may take a while to surface.

I would honestly argue that's more generally useful than personality information.

I thought this was a good point when I first read it; I would sometimes have trouble figuring out what tags to use for some of the more unconventional outfits. However, if users are including incorrect tags in the description, it might do more harm than good, especially since we can't expect knowledgeable users to check each one and correct them.

I think differentiating between two similar-looking characters such as identical twins would be the best way to make use of appearance descriptions (for example, describing Futami Ami and Futami Mami's side ponytails).

Jerr said:

Additionally, with the addition of adding thumbnails to wiki pages, we no longer need a dump of the character's "typical tags" to give an idea of what their "default" appearance looks like.

I don't think it was necessary even before then since you can already see the most recent posts of the character when viewing the wiki. The main advantage of these embedded images is that we can now view them from the Posts page instead of going to the actual wiki article, but you could still switch to viewing the posts at any time.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Those lists (as long as they're not formatted as, well, lists but rather proper sentences) often mention more niche tags that are easier to miss if you don't know they exist. Sure, everyone can tell when a character is wearing a black shirt or white shorts, but stuff like aiguillettes, epaulettes, oxfords, lapels, high-low skirts and so on are harder if you're not already into fashion. Taglists can give one an easy reference point.

This is a non-issue when a well-tagged example post is embedded in the wiki - the taglist is simply on the example post instead of in the wiki.

Additionally, if those are to be nuked... what would be left to be displayed in character wikis? Danboorians despise trivia like blood types, I've seen so many wikis trimmed of that. Might as well nuke all character wikis, why not. Or let's go further, no need for any wiki ever. Come on.

A sentence or two describing the character's place in their world and their basic personality is fine. It's when several paragraphs detailing their backstory, blood type and favorite flavor of dango are added that it makes the wiki a garbage dump.

Just want to add to this that sometimes I click on wikis hoping to find what a specific esoteric article of clothing is called and can't pick it out of the list because theres two or more names I don't recogize. A better format would be the well-tagged picture added and then in the initial paragraph a line like "Her jacket has epaulettes on it." Or "He dresses formally and wears oxfords shoes." Or even something like "The blue fabric over her dress is called a tabard."

Granted literally anything is better than cluttered lists. I just wish in addition to character trivia people would point out the specific tags you don't see everyday. I can tell she has brown_hair I don't need it pointed out, give me the actually important information.

Tag wikis are definitely useful for weird items of clothing like nontraditional miko but we don't need an outfit list for every character, especially if it's obvious.

AngryZapdos said:

This is a non-issue when a well-tagged example post is embedded in the wiki - the taglist is simply on the example post instead of in the wiki.

I disagree, a cleanly formatted description is a much more efficient way to ID specific items than opening a post and blindly trying to pick out what I'm looking for from a sea of 40+ general tags, especially when it's some esoteric name that requires double checking if not already introduced. I assumed that was the main purpose behind character wikis, because what else is there to include that's actually relevant to posting and tagging the character? Sucks that people were misusing it, but I'd hate to see a feature I found very useful nuked because of lazy users who'll just invent new ways to keep being lazy once it's gone.

ill echo my opinion of the changelog thread at say that the removal of wiki tags from the upload page was the single fucking worst change i have experienced on this site

wiki tags made tagging large amounts of images of the same character fucking bearable, and manually tagging vtuber's piece of shit complicated outfit is gonna give me carpal tunnel

i was in favor of banning jackasses who abuse the system

thelieutenant said:

ill echo my opinion of the changelog thread at say that the removal of wiki tags from the upload page was the single fucking worst change i have experienced on this site

wiki tags made tagging large amounts of images of the same character fucking bearable, and manually tagging vtuber's piece of shit complicated outfit is gonna give me carpal tunnel

i was in favor of banning jackasses who abuse the system

Ditto.

Same, I personally maintained many wikis like that and utilized that feature. People who blindly copied over tags would naturally be more visible than people who used the lists properly.

But let's not stray off-topic. Another pro for wikis over even the best-maintained posts as a reference is that you can order them, for instance, from head-to-toe (which is the common practice), making it even easier to locate the appropriate tag. That's what I did with Amane Tsukasa (Swimsuit ver.), for instance.
And, by the way, I'd have no example post to link for her solo. 100% of her artworks currently on Danbooru feature at the very least her twin sister.

It's useful imo particularly when you are starting out with uploading art of a new character and don't know what tags typically apply for that character. Of course basic stuff like eye colors (which differ a lot between artists anyways) could be removed without much issue.

Diet_Soda said:

I disagree, a cleanly formatted description is a much more efficient way to ID specific items than opening a post and blindly trying to pick out what I'm looking for from a sea of 40+ general tags, especially when it's some esoteric name that requires double checking if not already introduced. I assumed that was the main purpose behind character wikis, because what else is there to include that's actually relevant to posting and tagging the character? Sucks that people were misusing it, but I'd hate to see a feature I found very useful nuked because of lazy users who'll just invent new ways to keep being lazy once it's gone.

This. The gentag list on a post is not at all user friendly unless you're already familiar with the tags you're looking for, and you probably wouldn't be looking for them if you already knew what they were. It's not like the same people that mindlessly copy tags from a wiki or the related tags list wouldn't just mindlessly copy them from another post instead. If the intent is to prevent abuse, then related tags need to go, because that's even easier to abuse, you don't even need to leave the page and all it takes to add a tag is clicking on it.

We're also operating on the assumption that every wiki will have a perfectly tagged example post. Who's going to make sure that's always the case? The possibility of a mistag being present and leading to more mistags is just as likely whether it's a wiki or an image people are being forced to copy their tags from.

I think having uncommon and/or distinctive tags listed is fine, but basic things that should be immediately obvious to any tagger, like Flandre's blonde hair serve no purpose whatsoever.

blindVigil said:

We're also operating on the assumption that every wiki will have a perfectly tagged example post. Who's going to make sure that's always the case? The possibility of a mistag being present and leading to more mistags is just as likely whether it's a wiki or an image people are being forced to copy their tags from.

This same assumption is one we're already working on, and one that has already bitten us in cases like the braided ponytail disaster Jerr mentioned. I'd wager more people garden posts than wikis though, so posts are more likely to be corrected.

I'm in favor of keeping these descriptive tags as they can be useful. Of course people that abuse them should be dealt with, but I don't see them as problematic in any way.

Wikis should have a simple written description of what the character looks like. These "Typical tags" sections that just list a bunch of tags should be converted to written descriptions or removed.

Character descriptions should be easy to read. They should be written so that people who aren't familiar with the character are able to recognize them. They should list the things that are unique or that stand out. They should not list every trivial detail of their outfit just so the wiki can fit in every possible tag used by the character.

Wikis should be written for regular users, not just for uploaders. The vast majority of users are not uploaders or taggers. Wikis should be written for regular people trying to learn more about who a character is, not for people who only want a list of tags to copy for their uploads. This mindset that tagging is only about copy and pasting the same set of tags over and over again and that wikis only exist to allow uploaders to do that is the reason why the wiki related tags feature was removed.

By the way, evazion, could we have some examples of what'd you consider good examples of character wikis vs half-way decent ones vs bad ones for reference?