Creating futa character count tags

BUR #23591 has been rejected.

mass update (1girl or 1other) futanari solo -> 1futa -1girl
mass update 2girls futa_with_female -> 1futa 1girl -2girls -multiple_girls
mass update 1boy 1girl futa_with_male -> 1futa -1girl
mass update 2girls futa_with_futa -> 2futa -2girls -multiple_girls
mass update 3girls futa_with_futa -futa_with_female threesome -> 3futa -3girls -multiple_girls
create implication 1futa -> futanari
create implication 2futa -> multiple_futa
create implication 3futa -> multiple_futa
create implication multiple_futa -> futanari
mass update (1boy or 1other) male_futanari solo -> 1malefuta -1boy
create implication 1malefuta -> male_futanari
mass update (1boy or 1other) cuntboy solo -> 1cuntboy -1boy
create implication 1cuntboy -> cuntboy

This is a voting proposal to gauge interest in these potential tags and to gather possible pros and cons. I'm attaching a BUR mostly so that people are forced to give their two cents or vote, instead of ignoring the topic.

futanari lives in an in between state between sex tags.

On one hand we tag it as 1girl (or 1boy in case of male futanari), but on the other hand it does not qualify for any of the tags associated with the two sexes, such as hetero or yuri. People are simply told to exclude futanari when searching for 1girl or related tags, if they don't want to see it.
Sometimes, this leads us to absurd results: for example, we have 402 posts under futanari female_pubic_hair solo, despite the pubic hair being attached to a dick. Do people searching for female pubic hair want to see penile pubic hair? I would assume not. But female_pubic_hair -futanari is already a two-tag search, and it feels really bizarre to me that members are not able to search for females without seeing dicks.

I propose the creation of 1futa, 1malefuta, and 1cuntboy in order to be able to alleviate these issues.

Why these tag names?

1futa and 1cuntboy are already enstablished tags on Rule34 and Sankaku, and that would help in its usage for cross-site users. They're also the shortest versions of the terms, as 1cunt obviously would not work.

Why not 1intersex/1trans?

I'm proposing three separate tags instead of a single intersex count tag because I do not believe a generic tag for any kind of intersex character would be useful. These are fetish tags, and putting cuntboys, male futanari and "normal" futanari under the same tag to me would be like putting a handful of random yaoi posts under yuri because it's all technically gay. I don't think that's something that would improve our search system.
We also need to consider the (few for now) cases of mixed posts, such as post #6207465, and I think it's better to comprensively tag them now rather than kicking the can down the road.

What about Bridget?

The foremost problem I see with implementing this is the usual elephant in the room: Bridget & co. These tags would not apply to canonical trans characters, but only to actual visible futanari/cuntboy features, so in theory Bridget & co. are not affected (aside from actual futanari posts of course), but there's always the (guaranteed) chance of vandalism, or rather, misinterpretation of what these tags are for. Those posts are already getting vandalized anyway, so effectively not much would change for us on that front.

Okay, but why are males with vaginas getting two separate gender counter tags depending on whether they also have a penis or not while females with dicks would only get one?

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Okay, but why are males with vaginas getting two separate gender counter tags depending on whether they also have a penis or not while females with dicks would only get one?

Because 1cuntboy is for males with pussy and no dick, 1malefuta is for males with pussy and dick, and 1futa is for females with pussy and dick. We already have a tag for females with pussy and no dick, it's called 1girl.

Why would it be a two-tag search?
In case I don't want to see futanari, like, at all, I add it to my blacklist.

I really don't like the idea of creating character counting tags just for this, especially when 1other et al already causes it's fair share of issues (most recently topic #25909).

As for the bizarre tag combinations, we already exclude i.e. yuri from futanari posts, so I'd rather we use a similar approach for situations like futanari female_pubic_hair solo (i.e. excluding female pubic hair from futa posts).

岩戸鈴芽 said:

I really don't like the idea of creating character counting tags just for this, especially when 1other et al already causes it's fair share of issues (most recently topic #25909).

This proposal also serves to alleviate the load on 1other, which is currently being abused for clearly female bodies with a dick.

nonamethanks said:

Because 1cuntboy is for males with pussy and no dick, 1malefuta is for males with pussy and dick, and 1futa is for females with pussy and dick. We already have a tag for females with pussy and no dick, it's called 1girl.

I meant females with a dick but no pussy.

BUR #23592 has been rejected.

mass update (1boy or 1other) (male_futanari or cuntboy) solo -> 1cuntboy -1boy

KagayakuShiningGate said:

I meant females with a dick but no pussy.

Oh, I misunderstood your post. Newhalf is a pile of shit right now, and I really don't want to touch that tag before we figure out how to fix it.
Here's a BUR for your proposal. This is just a token BUR for voting, it's not the final one, just to see if people agree that these two cases should get a single count tag. I also don't know what to call a count tag that groups together cuntboy and male futanari. 1maleherm?

nonamethanks said:

This proposal also serves to alleviate the load on 1other, which is currently being abused for clearly female bodies with a dick.

Good to know, I wasn't aware of this. However, as you said, these are fetish tags, but with this BUR they'd replace the clearly non-fetish 1girl, 1boy etc, leading to obviously female bodies not being tagged 1girl (especially in implied_futanari situations), I don't think that's desirable either.

Looks good to me.

We should alias newhalf -> dickgirl or dickgirl -> newhalf instead of the existing alias dickgirl -> futanari.
1dickgirl (1girl) also matches its opposite 1cuntboy (1boy) better, and might even be more popular of a term both inside and outside of Japan.

This will also make it more of a nightmare for people trying to garden posts missing count tags.

Relative to the points I've raised before, in in forum #218478 and again in forum #221535, I feel like the consequences of this BUR passing would have immense ramifications in terms of precedent. As I've mentioned before, the current gender tagging system is overburdened by being used for three similar-yet-different ways: a) canon-tagging/gender; b) aesthetic (masculine/feminine/androgynous, and in-betweens for each, like effeminate); and c) genital/sex (penis/vagina/both/neither). I proposed that the solution to the underlying issue would be some form of systematic change that would allow these three disparate elements to co-exist without burden (though without any actual proposal for such because I'm not smart enough to think of a solution that can be swapped in easily).

In contrast, the solution that this BUR ultimately presents would be to give far greater precedent to the genital element over the other two elements, in detriment of the 'tag-what-you-see' principle (as most art would not feature any reference to the genitals). It functionally ends up giving weight to past suggestions of renaming the *boy/*girl tags to be more explicitly genital-focused (generally formulated as *male/*female, but if we want to go all the way relative to *futa, then it'd be *boycock/*girlcunt in parallel to *boycunt/*girlcock, leaving *boyfuta/*girlfuta as the in-betweens, and *other for ambiguity). This would be the logical conclusion tag-wise if this BUR were approved.

The problem with nuking *boy and *girl tags for boycock/girlcunt is that in a lot of images there are no genitals whatsoever. Like, you know, the entirety of rating:g?

KagayakuShiningGate said:

The problem with nuking *boy and *girl tags for boycock/girlcunt is that in a lot of images there are no genitals whatsoever. Like, you know, the entirety of rating:g?

Yeah, I know, but the existence of the proposed tags in the BUR would inherently imply that *boy/*girl are *boycock/*girlcunt, relative to *girlfuta (BUR's *futa minus newhalf, which would be *girlcock), *boyfuta (BUR's *malefuta) and *boycunt (BUR's *cuntboy). Taggers for rating:g posts would be increasingly incentivized to think whether or not the character in question has a cock, a cunt, both or neither, complicating the tagging process as Unb mentioned, in contrast to the current attitude which just focuses whether a character looks like a boy or a girl (with tag-what-you-know accounting for exceptions in that system). This BUR pushes us in that direction.

Even if your girlcunt idea went through, there are some glaring problems:

• It really wouldn't look good to have random innocent sfw pictures tagged with "girlcunt", especially on donmai.moe. There's no "cunt" to speak of in those pictures, come on. If we really have to go down this path, then we'd need a separate tag for when you can't see the genitals at all
• This completely ignores full-package futanari who simultaneously have a girldick and girlpussy.
• This also completely ignores instances in which the crotch is bare, but there are no genitals whatsoever, like post #6313831. You can't convince me to tag this as girlcunt. She has none.
• It really, seriously sounds stupid. Like very very stupid. Come on.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Even if your girlcunt idea went through, there are some glaring problems:

• It really, seriously sounds stupid. Like very very stupid. Come on.

I don't want any idea like it to go through, I'm saying that *girlcunt will manifest by itself, even if not with that name, due to this BUR. You're overly focused on the semantics of my argument here (incidentally, the reason why it's *girlcunt and not *girlpussy is because then the boy equivalent would be *boypussy, a common slang term to refer to a guy's asshole). Realistically, if the BUR passed and the base tags did get renamed, *girl would more realistically become *female, relative to how *boy would become *male to align with the BUR's *malefuta. The rhetorical names I came up with, what the ultimate consequent would be in practice due to this BUR, are supposed to show my opposition to the BUR, because it's fucking stupid.

• This also completely ignores instances in which the crotch is bare, but there are no genitals whatsoever, like post #6313831. You can't convince me to tag this as girlcunt. She has none.

Now you're actually focusing on the consequences of what I've suggested, but now consider this - we're already seeing this manifest to an extent on a is:sfw level. Characters such as those from Houseki no Kuni, who are femme-coded but 'canonically' genderless/gender-ambiguous, are tagged with *other when *girl would be more consistent relative to tagging on the rest of the website (another one of the issues with *other tagging, which is supposed to be for ambiguously-coded characters). If that tagging issue isn't resolved and there were art of these characters with their crotches bare, but with no genitals present whatsoever, it's almost probable that they'd be tagged with *other, and that'd probably be one of the roles *other would fulfill in this new genital-focused tagging paradigm this BUR would herald along with genital ambiguity in sexual circumstances ala post #4894492 (though, in most cases, I imagine most other folks would probably have no issue reconciling *girlcunt with the no pussy tag).

• This completely ignores full-package futanari who simultaneously have a girldick and girlpussy.

Wouldn't that fall under *girlfuta, the BUR's *futa?

• It really wouldn't look good to have random innocent sfw pictures tagged with "girlcunt", especially on donmai.moe. There's no "cunt" to speak of in those pictures, come on. If we really have to go down this path, then we'd need a separate tag for when you can't see the genitals at all

And I don't disagree with that, but again, that's what would be implicitly going on with the creation of these new tags from the BUR, even if the tag name is unchanged. We're going to end up on this path if the BUR passes regardless.

I don't see any issues at all and other booru sites use 1futa and 1cuntboy just fine.

It can help people refine searches and is good for filtering. I also don't know why this is being brought up in light of sfw posts when these tags on other sites are purely used as porn tags not canon tags

zetsubousensei said:

I don't see any issues at all and other booru sites use 1futa and 1cuntboy just fine.

It can help people refine searches and is good for filtering. I also don't know why this is being brought up in light of sfw posts when these tags on other sites are purely used as porn tags not canon tags

We use other gender tags as canon tags though. 80% of the site is SFW images, so how these tags would fit in with SFW images matters. Our current stance amounts to tagging character on genitals (kind of), meaning it would only logically follow that for SFW images where we know a character is say, a futa/newhalf without seeing it, we would follow the same system in place. We're very opposed to tagging a character different gender tags based on whether someone is naked or not, after all (See: The bridget threads where that approach was brought up, and denied.)

As much as I'm instinctively extremely averse to adding a bunch more very ugly gender tags, I am in favour of this. Futanari are not women, they're a coomer fantasy creation. Our tags are about biological sex, and futanari are not biologically female. More importantly, they involve different fetishes.

We don't tag futa as yuri and we distinguish between female_masturbation and futanari_masturbation. This is for the obvious reason that people will very often like and want to see one of these but will usually not want to see the other. Because they are different fetishes. Futanari is one of the most searched for tags, and it's also the second most blacklisted tag on the site. It's a highly divisive fetish that some people love and some people hate.

It makes sense to keep things consistent and treat futanari and women separately as much as possible. At the very least, it would mean I would get to stop explaining to bluenames why futa isn't yuri even if we do tag it 2girls.

It would also set a good precedent to make it very clear that our "gender" tags are fundamentally about genitals, not gender, and resolve some of the confusion that leads to a new pointless Bridget thread 5 times a year.

Damian0358 said:

As I've mentioned before, the current gender tagging system is overburdened by being used for three similar-yet-different ways: a) canon-tagging/gender; b) aesthetic (masculine/feminine/androgynous, and in-betweens for each, like effeminate); and c) genital/sex (penis/vagina/both/neither).

You are overcomplicating things far too much. Our "gender" tagging system is really not that complex.

1) Fundamentally, we tag biological sex, not gender. This is because for most of our users we are a porn site, and they care about genitals, not gender identity. There are narrow, limited exceptions to this rule to appease certain other portions of the userbase (Bridget and Lily).

2) Tag what you see is paramount. If a male character is drawn as female, we tag them as female regardless of what the artist or canon says. However, when TWYS leaves things ambiguous, as it does in almost all rating:g posts, then we defer to what canon or the artist says about the character's biological sex to the extent of the ambiguity.

That's it. It doesn't make everyone happy, but it works.

If you think that 1female and 1male would help to reduce the misunderstanding that we are tagging gender, when we're really tagging biological sex, then sure. But it's not at all an obvious "logical conclusion" from that that we need something as retarded as a girlcunt tag, that's ridiculous.

Your first sentence can be changed to "people don't want to see boys in their porn, so they give a dick to girls.".
The intention behind futanari is exactly that, not to be "woke" or whatever.