Creating futa character count tags

HoshiAkane said:

We use other gender tags as canon tags though. 80% of the site is SFW images, so how these tags would fit in with SFW images matters. Our current stance amounts to tagging character on genitals (kind of), meaning it would only logically follow that for SFW images where we know a character is say, a futa/newhalf without seeing it, we would follow the same system in place. We're very opposed to tagging a character different gender tags based on whether someone is naked or not, after all (See: The bridget threads where that approach was brought up, and denied.)

All the images in futanari is:sfw right now have bulges or suggestive dialouge implying the girl has a dick. The only canon futanari characters i know of elza_(ishuzoku_reviewers) is being tagged as 1girl with no futa tag on images where you cant see her dick

CoreMack said:

You are overcomplicating things far too much. Our "gender" tagging system is really not that complex.

1) Fundamentally, we tag biological sex, not gender. This is because for most of our users we are a porn site, and they care about genitals, not gender identity. There are narrow, limited exceptions to this rule to appease certain other portions of the userbase (Bridget and Lily).

2) Tag what you see is paramount. If a male character is drawn as female, we tag them as female regardless of what the artist or canon says. However, when TWYS leaves things ambiguous, as it does in almost all rating:g posts, then we defer to what canon or the artist says about the character's biological sex to the extent of the ambiguity.

I don't think I'm overcomplicating it. On the principle of TWYS, how I've defined it is principally correct. When the average user is tagging a girl, they're tagging them based on visual only. The majority of the time, in is:sfw contexts, we're not tagging based on biological sex, but on secondary sexual characteristics (and ultimately gender cues, i.e. the hair, the clothing, etc), and in art these characteristics can be rendered very ambiguously/selectively and independently of what the artist believes the character's biological sex is, which is why we have stuff like otoko no ko and the like. That is to say, we are fundamentally tagging relying on gender cues because gender is more outward-facing than biological sex, and utilizing TWYK to make sure that our surface level assessment was correct. That doesn't matter as much in is:nsfw contexts, of course, since you see dick and pussy, but in the majority case, the first thing someone tagging will focus on is whether they look like a woman (and what that entails to them).

Returning to where that places futanari, most depictions of futa are just cis women depicted with an extra cock (and optional balls), essentially biologically female but with a little extra on top. Based on TWYS, it doesn't make any sense not to have them tagged as women, because that's what they look like, the entire fetish is focused around "the average attractive cis woman being depicted with a cock and doing things with it that only a dude would imagine them doing." It's why, despite futanari principally referring to both feminine and masculine looking characters, we have a distinct tag for the latter because it is the former that gets the most attention. If tag what you see is paramount, then this BUR is invalid.

If you think that 1female and 1male would help to reduce the misunderstanding that we are tagging gender, when we're really tagging biological sex, then sure. But it's not at all an obvious "logical conclusion" from that that we need something as retarded as a girlcunt tag, that's ridiculous.

I don't know if I personally believe it would reduce the misunderstanding, I was just forwarding what past arguments on the issue have been, and they argued as much. And again, *girlcunt wasn't a legitimate suggestion, it's just a reflection of where we would end up tag-wise if this BUR passed. You'd be undermining TWYS because taggers would be forced to shift their thought from what they see ("does this look like a girl") to requiring more knowledge ("does this girl have a vagina"), knowing there's *futa, which could easily be applied to their rating:g post if it turns out she doesn't, ala post #7079044.

Another part I dislike about what this proposed change would achieve is that it messes with the "vibe" of some images. Yes, futanari is a fantasy fetish invention, but at least to me, a lot of the posts under lycoris_recoil futanari "work" because of the dynamic that exists based on them being 2 girls, which persists despite the artist introducing a penis. This circles back with what I said previously, which is how a theoretical 1futa would be mixing fetish tags with non-fetish tags like 1girl.

Damian0358 said:

When the average user is tagging a girl, they're tagging them based on visual only. The majority of the time, in is:sfw contexts, we're not tagging based on biological sex, but on secondary sexual characteristics...we are fundamentally tagging relying on gender cues because gender is more outward-facing than biological sex, and utilizing TWYK to make sure that our surface level assessment was correct.

99% of the time, canon sex and presented gender align, so it's not an issue. When we tag a character from a copyright we don't have knowledge of, and it turns out they're canonically a different sex than what they present as, then we tag incorrectly, and someone who knows the copyright comes along to correct our mistake.

Which is to say that we aren't tagging based on gender cues, we're tagging using gender cues as a helpful guide which is correct 99% of the time. But our tagging systems remains fundamentally about sex. This is the reason we tag Astolfo as male.

most depictions of futa are just cis women depicted with an extra cock (and optional balls), essentially biologically female but with a little extra on top. Based on TWYS, it doesn't make any sense not to have them tagged as women, because that's what they look like.

You can't actually be serious. A woman with dick no longer looks like a cis woman. You don't see a cis woman, you see a futanari. If to the average user, futa "looks like a woman", then why is it the second most blacklisted tag on the site?

You'd be undermining TWYS because taggers would be forced to shift their thought from what they see ("does this look like a girl") to requiring more knowledge ("does this girl have a vagina"), knowing there's *futa, which could easily be applied to their rating:g post if it turns out she doesn't, ala post #7079044.

Like I said, TWYS is paramount, but when and only when it leaves things ambiguous, TWYK overrides. That has always been the rule. We have always required to taggers to shift their thoughts to "does this girl have a vagina." Again, please see Astolfo.

岩戸鈴芽 said:

...but at least to me, a lot of the posts under lycoris_recoil futanari "work" because of the dynamic that exists based on them being 2 girls, which persists despite the artist introducing a penis.

For you, it works. For many other yuri fans, me being one of them, even the most subtle introduction of a penis instantly and completely ruins the dynamic. The "vibe" does not necessarily persist at all.

CoreMack said:

TWYS is paramount, but when and only when it leaves things ambiguous, TGYK overrides. That has always been the rule. We have always required to taggers to shift their thoughts to "does this girl have a vagina."

And I didn't say that wasn't the case, but a cornerstone of Danbooru's accessibility comes from both the combination of TWYS' paramountness and simple tagging. You'd probably see a rise of folks not uploading art because they don't want to bother figuring out from the get-go whether or not the girl has a vagina (as that's what 1girl would implicitly suggest it was about with *futa's existence), whereas before they could just go based on visuals and move on with their day. And don't suggest gender request as a solution, lots of folks hate using the request tags for cases like this (incidentally, a rename candidate if this BUR passes).

You can't actually be serious. A woman with dick no longer looks like a cis woman. You don't see a cis woman, you see a futanari. If to the average user, futa "looks like a woman", then why is it the second most blacklisted tag on the site?

And you can't actually be serious. Would you say that they still look like a futanari if I were to edit out the cock? Of course you wouldn't, because without a cock the woman looks like any other regular woman. The reason why it is the second most blacklisted tag on the site is because "cis woman with cock" isn't appealing to a lot of folks, especially when said futas have cocks bigger than their bodies and nuts fatter than a tanuki's.

What about cases where a normal woman protag in an eroge gets turned futa without consent or whatever? That would still be 1girl + futa, as opposed to a scenario like: whatever a character biologically is, then decides to identify as the oppostite later on.

I don’t know about all these other terms. I don’t think we should exempt Bridget from this just because he’s the current hot topic here, otherwise thats just going to open a loophole for other characters that have a scenario like that and that’s guaranteed to have tag wars for each post with that theoretical character.

Since the only factor here that is unchanging is the characters birth sex, I think we should just stick with that the most important decider. Otherwise we’re gonna get dudes in our search results for 1girl and yuri posts, and most people don’t want that.

CoreMack said:
You can't actually be serious. A woman with dick no longer looks like a cis woman. You don't see a cis woman, you see a futanari. If to the average user, futa "looks like a woman", then why is it the second most blacklisted tag on the site?

...

For you, it works. For many other yuri fans, me being one of them, even the most subtle introduction of a penis instantly and completely ruins the dynamic. The "vibe" does not necessarily persist at all.

Echoing what Damian said, I struggle to believe this is how most people see it. Maybe some do, but it's not a sentiment I can say I've ever come across, so making a decision like this based on it seems like a bad idea.

Despite what is said about Bridget in the first post, we know that this whole debacle is directly caused by Bridget. And, well, this would just make the Bridget vandalism and whinging more complicated for no real gain. If something like this goes through, we might as well implement the rest of the rule34/e621-style gender tag series and start making male on male, futa on futa, female on male, as well as the various 1furry, 1animal, and 2fat type tags alongside them, the first of which we're already setup to do.

Harpy implicates monster girl. Look at how many tags implicate monster girl. If this goes through, we're going to have to make harpy_futa, plant_futa, slime_futa, mermaid_futa, arachne_futa, scylla_futa, and monster_futa.

The sheer number of additional tags that this BUR doesn't account for is insane for what would ultimately be no real gain. Futanari is already extremely controversial. This does not help people blacklist futa nor does it help people searching for futa find it. It makes it harder on both of them. The rabbit hole here is deeper than anything found in a Mashumaro doujin and it only exists because this BUR does.

Damian0358 said:

You'd probably see a rise of folks not uploading art because they don't want to bother figuring out from the get-go whether or not the girl has a vagina

That's beyond ridiculous. I'm not describing a change, I'm describing how things have literally always worked. By default, you tag based on gender presentation. Sometimes, the gender presentation doesn't match the canon sex. In that case, either you know the character and you tag their canon sex, or you don't know the character, tag it wrong, and someone corrects you. This is how the site has always worked. You're the one who is proposing a change. Under your system, it seems to me that we should be tagging Astolfo or Felix as female.

Damian0358 said:

Would you say that they still look like a futanari if I were to edit out the cock? Of course you wouldn't, because without a cock the woman looks like any other regular woman. The reason why it is the second most blacklisted tag on the site is because "cis woman with cock" isn't appealing to a lot of folks, especially when said futas have cocks bigger than their bodies and nuts fatter than a tanuki's.

I don't get what you're trying to say. If you changed the image, would it be a different image? Yes, it would. If you edited a character's genitals, would it change the way they're tagged and change who is attracted to them? Yes? Obviously? The genitals present in an image is kinda a fairly major part of determining who's going to like the image.

岩戸鈴芽 said:

Echoing what Damian said, I struggle to believe this is how most people see it. Maybe some do, but it's not a sentiment I can say I've ever come across, so making a decision like this based on it seems like a bad idea.

Historically, all the major online yuri communities have enforced the "futa is not yuri" rule extremely strictly. /u/ and r/yuri still do. It's less of a hard rule in other places nowadays because of the trans implications, but for the last two decades it's been pretty much unanimous in yuri spaces online.

CoreMack said:

Historically, all the major online yuri communities have enforced the "futa is not yuri" rule extremely strictly. /u/ and r/yuri still do. It's less of a hard rule in other places nowadays because of the trans implications, but for the last two decades it's been pretty much unanimous in yuri spaces online.

But that's only on archive sites pixiv.net lots of artists tag it as Yuri.

CoreMack said:

...

Again, this hasn't necessarily been my experience (and I don't browse /u/ or r/yuri). I have no reason to disbelieve you rearding the places you browse, but it does feel like a "rule" that makes sense when applied within it's own bubble, but I'm not a fan of using that as a reasoning to change our overall approach (it wouldn't make sense to only make this proposed change for yuri-related content while leaving other content alone).

CoreMack said:

That's beyond ridiculous. I'm not describing a change, I'm describing how things have literally always worked. By default, you tag based on gender presentation. Sometimes, the gender presentation doesn't match the canon sex. In that case, either you know the character and you tag their canon sex, or you don't know the character, tag it wrong, and someone corrects you. This is how the site has always worked. You're the one who is proposing a change. Under your system, it seems to me that we should be tagging Astolfo or Felix as female.

I'm not proposing a change whatsoever, I'm discussing the potential consequences of this BUR being pushed on tagging procedure, and in my eyes, it'll make tagging seem less accessible to the average Joe Schmoe who wants to try upping art of what looks like a cute girl, and more tedious for longer-term taggers, ala what Unb and Ver have mentioned. You're free to disagree with me on this, maybe even argue that my point is marginal, but that's what I think.

Historically, all the major online yuri communities have enforced the "futa is not yuri" rule extremely strictly. /u/ and r/yuri still do. It's less of a hard rule in other places nowadays because of the trans implications, but for the last two decades it's been pretty much unanimous in yuri spaces online.

That rule originated not because those communities viewed futas as not women, but because futas are cis women with cocks, and in their eyes having a cock present in any form would dilute their pure yuri. Yuri purists didn't want a cock in the mix, even if the cock-haver is a woman, simple as.

岩戸鈴芽 said:

Again, this hasn't necessarily been my experience (and I don't browse /u/ or r/yuri). I have no reason to disbelieve you rearding the places you browse, but it does feel like a "rule" that makes sense when applied within it's own bubble, but I'm not a fan of using that as a reasoning to change our overall approach (it wouldn't make sense to only make this proposed change for yuri-related content while leaving other content alone).

With regard to futa and yuri, I'm not proposing a change. The way we have always handled it is in accordance with how yuri fans have traditionally always approached the issue. Other sites' policies are obviously not determinative, I'm citing them as evidence for the what seems to me to be obvious statement that people care about the genitals of the characters they're looking at, and that there is a significant number people don't consider futa to be women, at least for certain tagging purposes.

The bulk update request #23591 (forum #269831) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #23592 (forum #269839) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.

Yeah, some of the points raised in this thread don't have a good solution. Even dismissing the stupid arguments like 1girlcunt, this is not that great of an idea after all because of things like implied futanari (the legitimate cases, not people tagging visible cum as implied anything).