Implying primarchs to primarch.

BUR #22671 has been rejected.

create implication lion_el'jonson -> primarch
create implication fulgrim -> primarch
create implication perturabo -> primarch
create implication jaghatai_khan -> primarch
create implication leman_russ -> primarch
create implication rogal_dorn -> primarch
create implication konrad_curze -> primarch
create implication sanguinius -> primarch
create implication ferrus_manus -> primarch
create implication angron -> primarch
create implication roboute_guilliman -> primarch
create implication mortarion -> primarch
create implication magnus_the_red -> primarch
create implication horus_lupercal -> primarch
create implication lorgar_aurelian -> primarch
create implication vulkan -> primarch
create implication corvus_corax_(warhammer) -> primarch
create implication alpharius_omegon -> primarch
create implication alpharius -> alpharius_omegon
create implication omegon -> alpharius_omegon

Redoing a similar bur in light of this copyright becoming more popular and having nested tags now.

Tldr: What constitutes a primarch is litterally being one of one of these characters or the two missing ones. They are treated as siblings in universe.

Personally I'm not too fond of primarch being a character tag but if it's what it takes to prevent the missing tags then so be it and it could work similar to adeptus astartes being a character tag.

Last bur was colored by some discussion of what a primarch and my explantion being bad was so paging some other users I know have atleast a surface interest in 40k for the opinions. @Diet_Soda @winkywonker @coga @ilnarnar @NNescio.

Hold on, didn't we already tell you no when you tried this before? Who gave you permission to manually change primarch's category after everyone voted against your last BUR?

blindVigil said:

Hold on, didn't we already tell you no when you tried this before? Who gave you permission to manually change primarch's category after everyone voted against your last BUR?

Stated above, the copyright is becoming much more common and we now have nested tags. Last bur was also explained poorly.

That doesn't answer my question, or I wouldn't be asking it. Everyone else already told you why this tag shouldn't be a character tag, and your last attempt to make it one didn't pass. You can't just go behind the rest of the community's back to make changes nobody else agrees with.

You also misunderstand what adeptus astartes is supposed to be used for, though the wiki doesn't mention it so I can't blame you. Adeptus Astartes is for unnamed space marines, not literally any depiction of a space marine character. In that way, it's not like primarch at all, which is just a catch all for a group of named characters.

blindVigil said:

That doesn't answer my question, or I wouldn't be asking it. Everyone else already told you why this tag shouldn't be a character tag, and your last attempt to make it one didn't pass. You can't just go behind the rest of the community's back to make changes nobody else agrees with.

There is nothing about "going behind the communities back". I changed primarch to a character tag to be able to make the bur in the first place and it felt disingenuous to then change it back right after as it goes against the spirit of not having cross category implications, and as I said the bur was redone due to the copyright now being more common and I wasn't even too fond of having primarch as a char tag but saw it as a practically solution and simmilar to adeptus astartes. If anything exploiting the system and changing tags back after the bur already made would be "going against the communities back".

That's not what adeptus astartes if for either, it's for well, space marines. Named or not.

Dodo1 said:

There is nothing about "going behind the communities back". I changed primarch to a character tag to be able to make the bur in the first place and it felt disingenuous to then change it back right after as it goes against the spirit of not having cross category implications, and as I said the bur was redone due to the copyright now being more common and I wasn't even too fond of having primarch as a char tag but saw it as a practically solution and simmilar to adeptus astartes. If anything exploiting the system and changing tags back after the bur already made would be "going against the communities back".

Everyone else disagreed with your suggestion to make the tag a character tag. You changed it anyway. I dunno what that is if it's not going behind the community's back. Manually changing tags like this is already frowned upon in general, but doing so after your previous attempt(s) to do so got shot down is borderline rule breaking.

Your explanation for why you've done this doesn't make any sense. You're just trying to take shortcuts to make less work for yourself.

That's not what adeptus astartes if for either, it's for well, space marines. Named or not.

It should be, because that makes more sense from a searching perspective. How should one find only generic space marines if the search is polluted with named characters who have their own tags? How do you single out posts featuring a generic marine and a named character, if all of the named characters are also tagged adeptus astartes? You don't, and that's the problem. Adeptus astartes should not include named characters.

blindVigil said:
You're just trying to take shortcuts to make less work for yourself.

No and that wouldn't really make any sense either as I was already tagging it. Not to sound dismissive but I'm going to ignore rest of the whole "you're doing this because..." and such because that's getting weirdly heated/personal and continuing down that path just seems like a recipe for "drama" rather than tag/site discussion.

Back on track.

blindVigil said:
It should be, because that makes more sense from a searching perspective. How should one find only generic space marines if the search is polluted with named characters who have their own tags? How do you single out posts featuring a generic marine and a named character, if all of the named characters are also tagged adeptus astartes? You don't, and that's the problem. Adeptus astartes should not include named characters.

That makes less sense searching wise. How would people find, well, space marines as a whole? most space marine fans are also fans of named characters and hordes of space marines is a sub type of space marine content, and if you want that adeptus_astartes -solo should avoid stuff like character portrait. As you said the wiki doesn't mention named space marines not being included and I have never seen anything similar said, where did you get it? Maybe it's an old policy that got changed. If it's stated in some old obscure comment it's likely the community changed to the point where it was moot.

okay, but the thing i still dont get is: why should primarch be a tag in the first place? from what i can tell they all look like normal humans. if they had any sort of like... distinguishing trait i would understand at least a little bit but from what i can see the only reason this tag exists is so people can search for all members of this specific group.

I still can only see it being a tag if it was for a group of characters in the same image, like 1st_generation_(hololive), after-school_sweets_club_(blue_archive) and others.

Dodo1 said:

Stated above, the copyright is becoming much more common and we now have nested tags. Last bur was also explained poorly.

Even if it was, that wouldn't justify it. Nested tags are just visual representations of implications in the tag list.

sabisabi said:

Primarchs are ultra-superhumans with a large variety of traits that make them stand out from the norm in one way or another.

the first and most obvious difference is their size, they're all huge.

second is the fact that they are pseudo-warp entities and thus can't entirely be considered human, similar to the Emperor himself, who could be one of the last of the Old Ones, a species of a long-extinct alien race who are from a time when the universe was in its infancy.

Dodo1 said:

turning the Primarch tag into a character tag just seems a bit too redundant, it seems you just want to use this new nest mechanic, a machanic of which I'm against exactly because of situations like this ¬_¬ @evazion ,just for the sake of it.

if there are already character tags for each character along with the normal Primarch tag that already holds them all then I don't see any point in creating this character tag.

blindVigil said:

always itching for a fight aren't you ...

Dodo1 said:

No and that wouldn't really make any sense either as I was already tagging it. Not to sound dismissive but I'm going to ignore rest of the whole "you're doing this because..." and such because that's getting weirdly heated/personal and continuing down that path just seems like a recipe for "drama" rather than tag/site discussion.

Your original stated reason for suggesting this category change and implication was so that you didn't have to add the tag manually. I'm not making assumptions. It's precisely what you said. The fact you have been adding the tag yourself doesn't change the obvious "implication" that you wouldn't have to do that anymore if you got this passed. We don't make implications just because it's annoying that you have to fix other people's mistakes. We don't change categories just to justify implications. This was already explained to you in the previous thread.

That makes less sense searching wise. How would people find, well, space marines as a whole? most space marine fans are also fans of named characters and hordes of space marines is a sub type of space marine content, and if you want that adeptus_astartes -solo should avoid stuff like character portrait. As you said the wiki doesn't mention named space marines not being included and I have never seen anything similar said, where did you get it? Maybe it's an old policy that got changed. If it's stated in some old obscure comment it's likely the community changed to the point where it was moot.

post #6028625: An unnamed space marine tagged solo. It should have been obvious that adeptus_astartes-solo wouldn't work. You didn't answer my question for unnamed and named marines in the same picture.

Now to answer your question. Honestly? 40k Space Marines should just be tagged space marine, because that's what they are. General tags are supposed to be generally applicable. It doesn't make sense to say "well what if people want to see cats that aren't from this one series with lots of cats? So that series shouldn't be tagged cat."

Obviously they should just subtract the copyright from their search. If people want to see space marines that aren't from 40k, they should just search space_marine -Warhammer_40k like they would be expected to do for any other copyright. If they want all 40k space marines: Warhammer_40k space_marine. Easy.

Now, I think something needs to be cleared up. These suggestions aren't going the way you want not because people don't know about 40k lore. You don't need to know 40k lore to understand why these suggestions contradict how we use tags. I am someone with "at least surface interest in 40k." I know what a Primarch is, anyone who checks the wiki for 5 minutes knows what it is. It's a title, given to a group of individuals. It's not a person. It shouldn't be a character tag for the same reason we don't have an Akatsuki tag implicated by its members, why would don't have a Servant tag for all Fate characters, why we don't have any character tags used the way you're trying to use Primarch.

We don't make catch-all character tags for groups of individuala.

We also don't make tags just because "some people in the community hate these characters." That would be like making a Gehenna Academy Student tag for all students from that school just because some people hate everyone from that school. That would be ridiculous.

winkywonker said: always itching for a fight aren't you ...

Maybe you should be the bigger person and not try to fan flames?

winkywonker said:

Primarchs are ultra-superhumans with a large variety of traits that make them stand out from the norm in one way or another.

the first and most obvious difference is their size, they're all huge.

second is the fact that they are pseudo-warp entities and thus can't entirely be considered human, similar to the Emperor himself, who could be one of the last of the Old Ones, a species of a long-extinct alien race who are from a time when the universe was in its infancy.

so they're aliens who look exactly like humans..... except they're really big.

blindVigil said:

40k Space Marines should just be tagged space marine, because that's what they are. General tags are supposed to be generally applicable. It doesn't make sense to say "well what if people want to see cats that aren't from this one series with lots of cats? So that series shouldn't be tagged cat."

You might say it doesn't make sense, but there's several tags on Danbooru that behave exactly like this, in order to avoid having a general tag be flooded by a single copyright, genre, or similar. Before it was renamed to traditional youkai, youkai was flooded with non-traditional depictions of youkai ala Touhou or Youkai Watch despite the tag being informally defined for traditional depictions. Nissin Cup Noodle is currently excluded from Cup Ramen due to alias ambiguity for the latter. I could probably name many more examples like this.

Space marine as it is right now consists of 95 posts (the majority of which currently is Doom-related), while Adeptus Astartes consists of 564 posts. Allowing WH40K Space Marines in the tag would cause two things to happen: a) the space marine tag would be mainly just WH40K, a sprinkling of Doom, and a tiny smattering of other sci-fi properties; b) people would start just tagging the space marine tag and not the Adeptus Astertes tag (something which did previously happen when they were allowed under the tag).

This isn't even confronting an obvious question - do we even need a space marine tag? Isn't the tag as it is right now just canon tag padding? Space marines in execution can look very different from sci-fi property to sci-fi property, from the more real-world inspired looks of the Alien franchise to the power suit-wearing Spartans.

Damian0358 said:

You might say it doesn't make sense, but there's several tags on Danbooru that behave exactly like this, in order to avoid having a general tag be flooded by a single copyright, genre, or similar. Before it was renamed to traditional youkai, youkai was flooded with non-traditional depictions of youkai ala Touhou or Youkai Watch despite the tag being informally defined for traditional depictions. Nissin Cup Noodle is currently excluded from Cup Ramen due to alias ambiguity for the latter. I could probably name many more examples like this.

Space marine as it is right now consists of 95 posts (the majority of which currently is Doom-related), while Adeptus Astartes consists of 564 posts. Allowing WH40K Space Marines in the tag would cause two things to happen: a) the space marine tag would be mainly just WH40K, a sprinkling of Doom, and a tiny smattering of other sci-fi properties; b) people would start just tagging the space marine tag and not the Adeptus Astertes tag (something which did previously happen when they were allowed under the tag).

This isn't even confronting an obvious question - do we even need a space marine tag? Isn't the tag as it is right now just canon tag padding? Space marines in execution can look very different from sci-fi property to sci-fi property, from the more real-world inspired looks of the Alien franchise to the power suit-wearing Spartans.

So drop "space marine" and replace it with the canon tags like adeptus astartes, whatever the doom guy is called, and so on?

sabisabi said:

okay, but the thing i still don't get is: why should primarch be a tag in the first place? from what i can tell they all look like normal humans. if they had any sort of like... distinguishing trait i would understand at least a little bit but from what i can see the only reason this tag exists is so people can search for all members of this specific group.

Yeah this is why I pinged other people, last bur turned into a discussion of exactly that, you were there too and I feel it got colored by people who didn't know (no harm meant). What winky said was the in-lore reason (tldr ruler of humanity guy creates demi god lab babies). People have very strong opinions, positive or negative, on primarch content, the primarchs themselves are also visually distinct individually (I think winky worded it a bit poorly by responding with their size, the primarchs THEMSELVES are all visually distinct characters and insta regonisable by fans but the main trait ALL of them have in common is that they're huge.), they're central to the franchise (I'm talking "main focus on the cover of most books in the franchise" level) AND it's highly unlikely to have everyone together in such a large group. People are using this tag.

For what it's worth other sites also use use the "primarch" tag to sort shit.

To an outsider it's genuinely hard to put into words how much this is used when filtering content.

blindVigil said:
Maybe you should be the bigger person and not try to fan flames?

I don't think winky is the one doing that vigil...

Damian0358 said:

You might say it doesn't make sense, but there's several tags on Danbooru that behave exactly like this, in order to avoid having a general tag be flooded by a single copyright. Before it was renamed to traditional youkai, youkai was flooded with non-traditional depictions of youkai ala Touhou or Youkai Watch despite the tag being informally defined for traditional depictions. Nissin Cup Noodle is currently excluded from Cup Ramen due to alias ambiguity for the latter. I could probably name many more examples like this.

At least in Touhou's case, half the characters look indistinguishable from humans and the other half are just humans with one or two non-human features, like wings or animal ears. Even without explicitly excluding Touhou characters from the youkai tag, most instances would be canon tagging. We also, as you pointed out, renamed it specifically to avoid people canon tagging it on everything. It doesn't just exclude Touhou and Youkai Watch, it excludes everything that isn't traditional in appearance, for the same reason nontraditional miko is supposed to be mutually exclusive with miko. The tag was made for a specific purpose that naturally excluded things like Touhou characters, rather than excluding things that should fit visually just because it would make up a large percentage of the tag.

40k Space Marines look like space marines. I don't think anyone would argue if you pointed at a 40k character in power armor and said "Space Marine." Intuitively, they match an idea of what people inagine a space marine to look like, even if space marines in media don't have a standardized appearance. Elves can have pretty different appearances between copyrights, but we still have a tag for them, because we expect people to "know" what an elf is, despite the fact they're usually just humans with pointy ears. Space Marines are just as taggable as Elves are, at least in my opinion.

Dodo1 said:

Yeah this is why I pinged other people, last bur turned into a discussion of exactly that, you were there too and I feel it got colored by people who didn't know (no harm meant). What winky said was the in-lore reason (tldr ruler of humanity guy creates demi god lab babies). People have very strong opinions, positive or negative, on primarch content, the primarchs themselves are also visually distinct individually (I think winky worded it a bit poorly by responding with their size, the primarchs THEMSELVES are all visually distinct and insta regonisable by fans but the main trait ALL of them have in common is that they're huge.) AND it's highly unlikely to have everyone together in such a large group. People are using this tag. For what it's worth other sites also use use the "primarch" tag to sort shit.

This comes across to me like a fundamental misunderstanding of how we view and use tags. Occasional exception aside (and this is something we try to keep to a minimum), tags are visually identifiable concepts first and foremost. The characters being recognizable individually is not support for the existence of a tag like primarch. That is supoort for them having their own character tags. For primarch's existence to be justified, you need to provide us with a visually identifiable feature(s) that tells NON FANS what a "Primarch" is. "They're really big" is so far all we've gotten on that front, and I don't think that's really good enough. I've looked through primarch a few times, and I could only find a handful of posts that actually featured them in the company of much smaller individuals. Everything else is solo or with other primarchs or just with things that are just as big as themselves. Someone who doesn't know what a primarch is has no means of figuring it out from this post. Even the one stated physical trait given isn't applicable here. It doesn't seem to be applicable to most posts.

Even when looking at the posts where the size difference is depicted, this guy is only slightly bigger than the others. "Basically human but bigger than normal" is not a good reason for a tag, especially if that size difference is rarely depicted.

To an outsider it's genuinely hard to put into words how much this is used when filtering content.

Danbooru is not a 40k fan site, making sure every single canon thing people may or may not like has its own tag so it can be filtered isn't really part of the site's mission statement. We do not care what people's opinions of Primarch content is. The tag is either useful, or it isn't, and we generally don't like tags that are only taggable if you know the canon. If the community decides the tag is useless for our purposes, we'll nuke it.

I don't think winky is the one doing that vigil...

Because a smarmy looking reaction image is totally the appropriate response in a serious discussion. Pointing out your own stated reasons for arguing in favor of changes multiple people have explained reasons why we shouldn't and wouldn't make those changes is not picking a fight.

sabisabi said:

so they're aliens who look exactly like humans..... except they're really big.

You don't tag Superman as Clark Cent you tag him as Superman, the same as how you don't tag a superhero or supervillain or the Hulk as a human simply because they look human or an orc or vampire or werewolf as a monster simply because they have the features of a monster.

The same logic applies to the Primarchs & Space Marines in w40k

blindVigil said:

there was no need for any flames to begin with.

blindVigil said:

Because a smarmy looking reaction image is totally the appropriate response in a serious discussion. Pointing out your own stated reasons for arguing in favor of changes multiple people have explained reasons why we shouldn't and wouldn't make those changes is not picking a fight.

perhaps you should take a chill pill and try not take everything so seriously? maybe then there wouldn't be these aforementioned "flames" you love to light so much.

the rest of what blindVigil said to Dodo1:

then why do tags like superhero & supervillain exist? if you say it's because of the signature cape & spandex then I can simply use the argument that the power armor that the Space Marines & Primarchs wear justifies the tag.

it's the same thing with classic monsters and fantasy creatures, why not just tag them all as "monster" or "fantasy creature"? is it because they have pointy ears or sharp fangs? well then I can just point out a series where there's pointy-eared creatures or fanged monsters that that are not called elves or vampires because the lore of said series dictates such, then I could point out 1000 other shows and give you the same problem 1000x over with every single series dictating that this creature is called their respective Name A despite the fact that it generally looks like Name B on top of adding the fact that anyone who's likely to upload any pic of any given series probably knows that creature by Name A more then they do Name B and thus would tag it as such, and so you see I present to you an impossible task for you to do dear builder who's not paid to do his job, go and find every series on this site, cleanse them all any & all unnecessary Name A tags and replace them with Name B tags.

not something you wanna do is it? and thus it's best to just let it be, call a superhero a superhero, same thing in this instance for this series, call a primarch a primarch.

This post was written before your second one (i forgot to hit submit) but it should still cover all those points you just made.

winkywonker said:

You don't tag Superman as Clark Cent you tag him as Superman,

We tag him as both for the most part.

the same as how you don't tag a superhero or supervillain or the Hulk as a human simply because they look human

We don't have a "human" tag. The superhero tag is used for Western-style superhero costumes. It's a bit hard to explain, but if you look at the tag you'll get it.

or an orc or vampire or werewolf as a monster simply because they have the features of a monster.

monster girl/monster boy. For non-humanoid, more traditional monsters we have monster.

The same logic applies to the Primarchs & Space Marines in w40k

I don't get what any of this has to do with Primarchs. Space Marines I understand. From what I've seen, they all wear a very distinct set of giant armor.
I'm not a Wh40k expert, so please correct me on this if I'm wrong: But from what I understand the Primarchs aren't an alter ego like Superman nor do they have monstrous traits like monster girls/boys... they're just really big humans with backstories that I sincerely doubt will be relevant enough in any piece of art uploaded that it would warrant a tag.

sabisabi said:
I don't get what any of this has to do with Primarchs. Space Marines I understand. From what I've seen, they all wear a very distinct set of giant armor.
I'm not a Wh40k expert, so please correct me on this if I'm wrong: But from what I understand the Primarchs aren't an alter ego like Superman nor do they have monstrous traits like monster girls/boys... they're just really big humans with backstories that I sincerely doubt will be relevant enough in any piece of art uploaded that it would warrant a tag.

It couldn't possibly be more relevant. Again, deeply central to the story. Space marines are directly tied to primarchs actually. I suggest doing a brief look into the 40k universe. I hate how douchy this sound but I blame this more on my inability to explain but I think the primarch discussions should be mostly for people in the fandom.

A fan site put it better than I could:

The Primarchs were the twenty genetically-engineered "sons" of the Emperor of Mankind, and the genetic "fathers" of the Space Marine Legions.

PLEASE do a look into what the primarchs are before going against the tag (Again hate how gatekeeping I sound but it's just for the sake of tagging). You might even like the setting.

blindVigil said:

Because a smarmy looking reaction image is totally the appropriate response in a serious discussion. Pointing out your own stated reasons for arguing in favor of changes multiple people have explained reasons why we shouldn't and wouldn't make those changes is not picking a fight.

But saying dramatic things like "going behind the community's back" and saying people are actually doing things for other reasons than they said "You're just trying to take shortcuts to make less work for yourself." etc? I don't know if it's a typing style as it was somewhat similar when we talked in another bur but you were getting weirdly personal/heated.

blindVigil said:

He is lecturing you, and has every right to as a more experienced user. Blank User is at least two levels above you, three if you include Platinum, and he's put a great deal of effort into understanding and improving the site in the short time he's been here. If you don't want to be lectured by someone who clearly has a better understanding of how things work around here than you do, then don't....

https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_posts/256880

(Though this I mostly find funny in hindsight being that rank now)

Truth be told I forgot I actually suggested the primarch as a char tag thing back then. I just remembered the discussion with space marine legions and "what's a primarch".