Upload sniping / Uploading with few to no tags

Mikaeri said:

Would you consider promoting this user now considering his habit for nabbing works as fast as he does? If so, you shouldn't have a problem with my idea. After all, I'm basically automating his job.

Yes I would. And no, I DO have a problem with automated uploading. Artist might upload a circle cut, a compilation, a collaboration, a fanart from one of his subscribers, or whatever else that doesn't fit danbooru. Selecting what to upload still needs manual human intervention.

Post sniping isn't a direct cause of undertagging, but there is definitely a correlation. You can't just say it doesn't exist when clearly it affects the system.

I'm not necessarily saying this is false, but it would help your cause if you backed the claim with some data. I don't exactly see a torrent of recent untagged images. If you have some offenders in mind, just throw the post numbers in here.

So...when you are creating this bot, then you are basically saying that you are owning this artist's posts on Pixiv and that only you are allowed to upload it. That is something different than just sniping, because even sniper are giving you a chance to upload an image and that is not the work of a bot. So kick this idea out the window.
We should first judge an image on its own merits and that is something only a user can do, but not a bot.

Then...
@Lannihan @gary25566
They some tags added to their uploads. That is fine, this also happens to you. I can't see much red tags when I click your first link, so what do you want to say here? Do some fact checking before you are going to attack other users. Or is there really some misuse going on? Then you should remove the tags, but I can't see any removals.

About @Tojikosan
Yes, I would still propose him as Contributor. You are getting the false view here and you are making a thing to a problem which does not exist. The result is what counts and what the uploader made out of their upload. That's why it is important to see wjo uploaded an image: How it got tagged and are there any mistakes by the uploader. Because the uploader is first and foremost responsible for their posts. So it is quite important to know who uploaded a post, so we know who should be doing work. This, I can see with all three users. They might not be as good at tagging as you, but they are not undertagging.
And no, post sniping has nothing to do with undertagging. If there are, could you please show me it? Because the links above don't show it to me.

Sniping is no reason for demotion, nor should it be for any kind of feedback.

Type-kun said:

Yes I would. And no, I DO have a problem with automated uploading. Artist might upload a circle cut, a compilation, a collaboration, a fanart from one of his subscribers, or whatever else that doesn't fit danbooru. Selecting what to upload still needs manual human intervention.

Right -- because he is an amazing and diligent tagger post-upload. I don't disagree with that. I also 100% agree that selecting what to upload still needs manual human intervention, but even as I say that -- The current system is exploitable because of no systematic checks in place for if a user will intentionally undertag just to have a 'glory' upload under their name. And users can (and perhaps are or willing to) exploit it in the future, without regard for if the content is actually appropriate or not with a manual check. Some artists like matsunaga_kouyou, as I've said before, upload the same kind of good art so consistently that if someone wasn't saying they were automating their ups while they actually were, it'd take some serious digging to find that out.

I'm not necessarily saying this is false, but it would help your cause if you backed the claim with some data. I don't exactly see a torrent of recent untagged images. If you have some offenders in mind, just throw the post numbers in here.

I'll find some post numbers when I get the chance to. In the meantime, @CodeKyuubi is privy to find some if he has any he can think of. Tags that are outright wrong/bogus and need fixing by other users without the select care of the original uploader.

Provence. said:

So...when you are creating this bot, then you are basically saying that you are owning this artist's posts on Pixiv and that only you are allowed to upload it. That is something different than just sniping, because even sniper are giving you a chance to upload an image and that is not the work of a bot. So kick this idea out the window.
We should first judge an image on its own merits and that is something only a user can do, but not a bot.

I'm not 'saying' anything. Also, what the heck does "even sniper are giving you a chance to upload an image and that is not the work of a bot" mean? Even sniping gives you a chance to upload an image? The reason why we call it that is because they don't. What's your point?

Then...
@Lannihan @gary25566
They some tags added to their uploads. That is fine, this also happens to you. I can't see much red tags when I click your first link, so what do you want to say here? Do some fact checking before you are going to attack other users. Or is there really some misuse going on? Then you should remove the tags, but I can't see any removals.

About @Tojikosan
Yes, I would still propose him as Contributor. You are getting the false view here and you are making a thing to a problem which does not exist. The result is what counts and what the uploader made out of their upload. That's why it is important to see wjo uploaded an image: How it got tagged and are there any mistakes by the uploader. Because the uploader is first and foremost responsible for their posts. So it is quite important to know who uploaded a post, so we know who should be doing work. This, I can see with all three users. They might not be as good at tagging as you, but they are not undertagging.
And no, post sniping has nothing to do with undertagging. If there are, could you please show me it? Because the links above don't show it to me.

Anecdotal stuff. Tojikosan is a unique corner case where I would actually consider promotion, but I would still under all things consider it disdainful and considerably exploitative of the system.

Sniping is no reason for demotion, nor should it be for any kind of feedback.

And that's just your opinion, like my own.

My point is that creating a bot is a horrible idea.

And no, that is not my opinion. @NWF_Renim has once removed a feedback like this where an user got a neutral feedback from a moderator, because of sniping uploads and not tagging before. This feedback is gone. So it seems that it really is not a reason to create feedbacks for.

Sorry if I missed seeing this suggested already, but what if the site were to have an upload cooldown?

Something like you have to wait 2-3 minutes inbetween each upload. It would more or less solve this "sniping" issue and encourage people that upload so fast that they under tag to slow down and tag each upload better.

A cooldown would also help future proof the site a little bit against any kind of postbased vandalism.

Hoobajoob said:

Sorry if I missed seeing this suggested already, but what if the site were to have an upload cooldown?

Something like you have to wait 2-3 minutes inbetween each upload. It would more or less solve this "sniping" issue and encourage people that upload so fast that they under tag to slow down and tag each upload better.

A cooldown would also help future proof the site a little bit against any kind of postbased vandalism.

Not a good idea. How would you upload a batch then? That is more frustrating.

Hoobajoob said:

Sorry if I missed seeing this suggested already, but what if the site were to have an upload cooldown?

Something like you have to wait 2-3 minutes inbetween each upload. It would more or less solve this "sniping" issue and encourage people that upload so fast that they under tag to slow down and tag each upload better.

A cooldown would also help future proof the site a little bit against any kind of postbased vandalism.

I said before in response to forum #131490 through forum #131491 that this would get on my nerves by a huge amount. I have the habit of uploading in shotgun batches so that others don't interrupt my source while I'm uploading.

The proposal suggested by kittey is more elaborate and intricate, but leaps and miles better to addressing this issue.

@Mikaeri - I had read every post on the thread, just as I read your whining and insulting people made solely because they uploaded stuff before you got the chance to before this thread was made.

And, having read the thread, I can see that there are more people commenting who don't see upload sniping as a problem than that do.

I disagree with your claim that "it actually does matter who uploads a post because it is, quite possibly, the single most recognized thing on your profile related to contribution that no other user doesn't note, aside from translation" on the basis of so bloody what? Are you that desperate for online fame?

During a couple of months of checking chronically undertagged posts several times a day I saw no evidence whatsoever to indicate that upload sniping was contributing significantly to undertagging. Yes, you'd see images appear with basically no tags, but then they would disappear again a minute later. I don't see much of a problem with that. There are a couple of people who regularly leave images un- or under-tagged for inexcusably long periods of time, who you haven't even mentioned in this thread, and other than that it’s generally relatively new or infrequent uploaders. Yes, some of these people make fairly frequent mistakes in tagging, but this is no different to other people making mistakes.

And persuading people not to do upload sniping wouldn't in any way stop there being situations where multiple people tried to upload the same image at the same time.

With regards to the various solutions and pseudo-solutions proposed previously in this thread, I've seen advantages and disadvantages to most of them, which were generally already brought up by the time I read the posts in question. This is why I didn't comment on most of them.

Oh, and that analogy you used is a total straw man. I stand by what I said - if you get upset by the idea of your uploads being sniped and your effort in uploading them is going to waste, as you clearly do, then the best way to avoid this is to not try to race the snipers to get the images up. You may claim that this is anecdotal but I assure you that if you did that your rate of getting sniped would drop to virtually nil as well. I have a couple of artists who I follow that are frequently uploaded quickly to here by people you have accused of sniping. Yes, I hardly ever upload their works because someone else gets there before me. Like I said before, so bloody what?

Provence. said:

My point is that creating a bot is a horrible idea.

And to some, it'd be a great idea. So what if artists upload a circle cut, a compilation, a collaboration, etc? They're still approvable by all means. Circle cuts aren't necessarily bad quality or inappropriate for the site. And as for artists uploading fanarts on their own, bonafide pixiv account -- this is so incredibly rare that the risk is practically nothing. Many artists when they find fanart just link to it using illust/(illust id) on pixiv as per the markup system they have.

kuuderes_shadow said:

stuff

I have a lot of stuff to rebuke about what you're saying, but your comment is excessively ad hominem, uncivil, and most importantly, non-productive. If you have points to rebuke the solutions proposed, then feel free to say them but don't go attacking me or others about what you've seen or heard.

Reported your comment to a Moderator instead, so as to not derail the thread.

Where is the argumentum ad hominem? You mean the part about the Internet fame? Then maybe you are right.

But I would suggest that everyone should calm down here. On the last page, three users got attacked for no apparent reason (Where is the mistagging?) and now we go into making assumptions. That is not a good idea.

The only issue I see with bots is that they add the original tag to works that do not need them; a weird issue since Pixiv artists seem to like using the tag on their own uploads.

There are much more issues. Such as:
0) Bot won't be able to tag image. That is not a big problem if we are talking about dozen or so artists. But...
1) Bot won't be able to tag pixiv manga/batch upload correctly.
2) Parenting issues
3) Large pixiv mangas. Like 70 pages large, yeah.
4) Loli and shota tags.
5) You can snipe twitter pics.

Basically some users above proposed to create sniping bot. With the VERY SAME issues: no tags, no parenting. But if human biological uploaders are able to tag image more or less correctly afterwards, bot is not.

Well, tagging will still be done manually. But only in theory.

But the concern about batches is something I have to agree with. Low quality doodles might be inside.

The discussion about defining who should own a sniped upload makes me think "no one/everyone".
In the end I think it's the only way to properly acknowledge everyone's effort, and actually the system to do that looks simple enough. (Sorry if this was already brought up in the past.)

When multiple users attempt to upload the same image in a short time frame¹, it would count as a collective upload, and appear as such on the post's page² and users profiles, on a separate line from uploads but not in regular uploads. If needed, a dummy account would be made to be the regular owner of such posts (called e.g. "Collective uploads").

¹: a few minutes starting at the time of the first upload, possibly shortened according to the number of initial tags.
²: either displaying "Uploader:" + names, or "Uploader: Collective uploads", or "Collective upload" alone with names in tag history, or something in between.

This system suggests that new posts are hidden to everyone but the uploader(s) until the time frame ends to prevent abuse (knowingly reuploading).

Potentially, secondary uploaders would be denied as uploaders if they put less tags than initial tags.

Ideally all of this would only concern recent pixiv and twitter uploads, assuming it's possible to fetch their source timestamps when uploaded.

Welp, lost my old post by accidentally refreshing.

The discussion has stagnated, but I'd like to express support for the idea I read in some pages back of removing names from the equation entirely. Obviously, people seem to care about the name, which is why this whole topic began, and why people started tagging the bare minimum in the first place. It stands to reason then that removing names would remove the incentive to rush to upload posts within seconds, and maybe foster a healthier environment for contributors (In the sense of contributing to the site).

I honestly can't remember everything I wrote, and I get the feeling this second attempt is a lot shoddier than my first one, but anyway, I think it'd be fine if we aggregated all the posts under a common account, like albert with a bunch of old posts and how Gelbooru's Danbooru rips are all under the account name 'danbooru'. If the stance that 'methods don't matter as long as the image gets uploaded' is to be believed, then it should be fine to have uploads without usernames attached. I feel it would remove a major point of contention between users, as - like I said before - people obviously do seem to care about having their name on an image. Maybe a little too much, based on the tone of many posts throughout this thread.

Granted, this might cause some users to leave in protest, but the slack can always be picked up by others. You could, of course, say it the other way around and say, people who try to tag near-fully before upload should be the ones to leave, names be kept visible, and their slack picked up. Personally, I think the only possible result of the latter is an increasing upload war in which, as affected users' frustrations rises, images are uploaded with no tags whatsoever initially, or uploaded via a bot following specific high-profile artists (As mentioned in earlier posts a general bot is very unwieldy).

Uploading without tags... I can't say I've never considered doing it, but, call me rigid or whatever, I prefer to proceed diligently as I've been doing ever since I first started uploading to Danbooru years ago. I do know of one user whose name will not be named who once got frustrated enough to do this very thing, upload with no tags and edit afterward, and for some time he got all the images that he wanted to have... but eventually quit altogether because he felt the toxicity of uploading was too much from when he'd first joined.

Think as of late the major crux of this problem is the fact that most onlookers don't view this as a problem especially when they're not directly involved in it. Long as I've argued this, I think that this issue in the past has convinced many uploaders to just plain leave (as it's a very empty feeling if you're relegated to only tagging your favorite uploads and what not). And my goal here is to make uploading hopefully more welcome.

That being said, I am in favor of pretty much removing uploader names except to approvers if only for the purpose of review. It is pretty much the de facto easiest solution thus far, and wouldn't require any sort of elaborate feature be coded into the site.

But about forum #132295 -- the solution proposed comes with one major caveat though, and that is not being able to search for what you've uploaded anymore if all ups from users with unlimited privs are basically pooled under one account as a sort of "official curation" gallery. It's a novel solution and I like it, but through this change I imagine one would at least want all their old uploads somewhere searchable, like a favgroup (or multiple favgroups, pool)... not to mention, there isn't really any described way to handle deletions or punish users that make it a habit to upload more disagreeable content... hrm.

I leave out users without unrestricted privs since we haven't entrusted them yet to keep the gallery clean, although I suppose I'm kind of blowing up smoke in the air here to begin with, by trying to reason out a system that might seem wishy-washy.

The collective uploads thing mentioned in forum #131704 is also somewhat interesting, although the frame for upload would have to be notably short to prevent exploitation in the reverse direction (users seeing a good up here than the source site and then scrambling to put their name on it too by putting in junk tags). It would also induce rework of the user: metatag (and the post structure in the database) which I assert may also be bit disconcerting given the nature of metatags themselves. And not to mention, it still won't really 'solve' the problem of users undertagging on upload.

Last note, I'd like to mention that my gripe isn't with sniping itself, but with undertagging and predatory upload habits (quickly moving from one upload snipe to another, and tagging inadequately between each). I have extremely little complaints about uploaders that tag their posts well even after a 'lazy' upload, but the current half assing by a few notable users makes me think otherwise that there is something that needs to be adjusted, to either put more heat on them or not allow them to do what they do.

Speaking as (largely) an enduser, I do follow users who upload from less prolific artists and other, more unusual stuff.

For me at least, it's a considerable part of the curation process as I can find people whose tastes more-or-less align with mine and watch what they post. There's quite a bit of stuff that I would have missed by just browsing /posts had I not use of the user: metatag.

I'm here because I don't want to trawl pixiv and deviantart and other sites. I want to follow those who do.

Gollgagh said:

Speaking as (largely) an enduser, I do follow users who upload from less prolific artists and other, more unusual stuff.

For me at least, it's a considerable part of the curation process as I can find people whose tastes more-or-less align with mine and watch what they post. There's quite a bit of stuff that I would have missed by just browsing /posts had I not use of the user: metatag.

I'm here because I don't want to trawl pixiv and deviantart and other sites. I want to follow those who do.

Maybe one of the coding experts can tell us if it's feasible to insert some sort of metadata or whatever that attaches the identity of the uploader (Say, their user ID) to the image 'under the hood' before sending them off to an aggregate account, so on the surface it'd say it belongs to the unmanned account while users could still search for specific users' uploads.

Here's to hoping we actually reach a consensus, whether to act or to not act, instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug or throw about whataboutisms.