Tag discussion: wink

S1eth said:

Eh, I think wink does the job fine, and it's pretty convenient to have both tags start with "win" meaning they'll always be next to each other in the tag list, so I don't have to look all over the place for missing tags.

That is a pretty marginal benefit when it comes to sacrificing clarity. It does the job okay but I think if its a low cost (people having to remember a new tag, instead of wink) with a high benefit (a much more intuitive tagging system, the end of much confusion regarding winks/winces).

Hillside_Moose said:

Are you suggesting we alias wince and wink to one_eye_closed? If we're keeping wince while changing wink for no reason other than "consistency," then nothing will change since people will still use wince for "involuntary winks."

We really can't control, or aim to control, what people may use a tag for. A wink and a wince are very, very different.

Really we can keep wink, just have it implicate one_eyed_closed and have anything that is currently implicated/aliased to wink changed.

I'd leave wince along, personally, since its really a broader physical reaction beyond closing one eye.

Rastamepas said:

Its working as the word Is meant to be taken

OOZ662 said:

Or, another person will see it without the connotation to begin with and will argue contrary.

Really, to me it boils down to whether we want to keep having people argue the meaning of a word or not. Which seems like an obvious answer.

Saladofstones said:

Really we can keep wink, just have it implicate one_eyed_closed and have anything that is currently implicated/aliased to wink changed.

I suppose that's a decent compromise between the two standpoints, but I worry that the opposite argument will start happening; people will start being confused that wink is forced to take on the implied playful/whatever meaning. Still makes more sense to me than the current setup, though.

Pretty much, the difference between a wink and the more neutral one_eyed_closed is all context.

A wink, by definition, is a relatively short closing on an eye to send a signal. one_eyed_closed is just useful for anytime a single eye is closed and there isn't sufficient contextual clues to figure out why its being closed.

As it is, it seems wrong to put wink if a sniper is closing one eye, if someone is rubbing one eye tiredly after waking up, if someone is cleaning their eye, or whatever other reason.

So while it is likely that people will be confused with wink, its much simpler to use a definition in line with its typical use than making one up to fit an arbitrary need here, especially since we have a much better alternative.

I don't think we need a whole new tag for the playful/signaling kind of wink though. As it's been pointed out, those kinds of images could be found with ;) or one_eye_closed + smile.

Toks said:
We don't name tags inaccurately just so their alphabetical order is more convenient. It's way more important that people actually know how to use the tag at a glance.

wink is accurate.

Saladofstones said:
That is a pretty marginal benefit when it comes to sacrificing clarity. It does the job okay but I think if its a low cost (people having to remember a new tag, instead of wink) with a high benefit (a much more intuitive tagging system, the end of much confusion regarding winks/winces).

The few people who actually tag images know how to use the tag (not like it's hard to understand), and I'd rather support having more convenience for the power users.
It's just like how some people still don't understand the difference between bottomless and no_panties, but it doesn't make us change the tag name.

And what Thömas said above: implicating wink just leads to having redundant tags. And changing the tags around would just confuse people who have been correctly using wink until now.

That makes sense, I didn't really want to change any definitions in the first place, I mostly just made this topic for clarification of the tag definition and to bring to attention some tag underpopulation.

S1eth said:

wink is accurate.

"Wink" means to intentionally send a signal by closing one eye. Involuntarily closing one eye is not a wink, so the name does not match the current definition.

S1eth said:

The few people who actually tag images know how to use the tag (not like it's hard to understand), and I'd rather support having more convenience for the power users.
It's just like how some people still don't understand the difference between bottomless and no_panties, but it doesn't make us change the tag name.

If the name was made more accurate then more people would use it correctly. If more people used it correctly there would be less need for power users to correct misuses of it, so the minor amount of convenience lost by the change to tag order wouldn't matter.

Kikimaru said:

Emoticon ;) is closer to the meaning of "wink".

Additionally, a wink is a learned action; a wince is an involuntary action.

+1 to reversal of one_eye_closed -> wink alias.

I agree with all of the above as well as with the point Toks made and Saladofstones' examples, for what it's worth.

Removed alias and did:
create implication wink -> one_eye_closed

But unless someone is willing to go through and distinguish between the two, all this is going to create is tag clutter and we might as well pick one and straight up alias.

I think a wink should be retained for for whatever would qualify as being when its a gesture, as opposed to a general term.

Specifically whenever ;) would used.

In order to better qualify the tags, I think these implications should be made:

create implication ;q -> one_eye_closed
remove implication ;q -> wink
create implication >_o -> one_eye_closed
remove implication >_o -> wink
create implication ;d -> one_eye_closed
remove implication ;d -> wink
create implication ;o -> one_eye_closed
remove implication ;o -> wink
create implication d; -> one_eye_closed
remove implication d; -> wink
create implication ;p -> one_eye_closed
remove implication ;p -> wink

The ;) tag is rather specific. It is only supposed to be used with a closed-mouth smile: see topic #8551

Now that you've gone and done it, if you are going to be tinkering with a widely used existing tag wouldn't it be wise to sort out the affected wiki at the same time. So everyone knows what to put each on.

SciFi said:

Now that you've gone and done it, if you are going to be tinkering with a widely used existing tag wouldn't it be wise to sort out the affected wiki at the same time. So everyone knows what to put each on.

I moved wink's former wiki to one_eye_closed.

jxh2154 said:

But unless someone is willing to go through and distinguish between the two, all this is going to create is tag clutter and we might as well pick one and straight up alias.

That's my thought on the matter. I'm wondering if there's been other examples of people complaining on posts about not being able to tell the difference. Was it really that serious of an issue? Acting on hypotheticals and "what ifs" are a little
iffy to me. :/

So can we alias wink -> one_eye_closed yet instead of implicate? I don't really understand why they'd need to be separate tags in the first place, and there's no way anyone's going to go through 69000 posts manually and clean the wink tag up so they're just redundant.

As a searcher and a tagger, though I'm in no way on the level of most of you in this topic, I personally think "wink" should be aliased to "one_eye_closed".

Winking is a voluntary action, and I've seen the "wink" tag misused so often that I don't think I even correct the tags now - in fact, using Danbooru is completely confusing if you want to understand what a wink even is. If everyone can't learn to use it properly, I say abolish its separateness. There are things we don't have specific tags for, and searches with "one_eye_closed" and ";*" will probably do the trick in place of "wink".

I'm not an expert, but given the apparent user confusion over "wink", I don't know that it'll help us any to keep it in place.

Toks said:

So can we alias wink -> one_eye_closed yet instead of implicate? I don't really understand why they'd need to be separate tags in the first place, and there's no way anyone's going to go through 69000 posts manually and clean the wink tag up so they're just redundant.

Did
remove implication wink -> one_eye_closed
create alias wink -> one_eye_closed

So the wink tag and wiki page doesn't exist at all anymore?

remove alias winking -> one_eye_closed

Link to request

When animated there is a greater difference between one_eye_closed (post #1529981, post #1485292) and winking (post #1725358, post #1034953).

There are some gray areas, but for clarification may want to define winking as going from both eyes opened to having one closed (post #1102505), while having both eyes closed and opening one is one_eye_closed (post #1424912).

Grayer areas are

• post #1291415 (involuntary)
• post #1065384 (both eyes open -> closing one eye -> closing both eyes)