Question: Uploading with minimal tags.

Yeah, checking "unchecked" blogs (90% of users of such use pixiv/deviantart/etc. and place 95% of their "useful" content there), browsing twitter for sketches is totally "useful" too. And upload them, for what purpose if you are then going to catch the finished image from pixiv and receive all the glory?
No, forcing others to search won't actually make them search. Danbooru is not ideal and its users won't change their ways only because you said so.

Also since when is pixiv necessarily "easy"? 95% of my uploads (from alst 3 months) are either from the little (amount of) artists I have bookmarked or from absolutely random roaming. And I didn't need you to decide to go into that unrewarding and tedious path. A path, that your zealousy made even harder to bear.

No, I'm not going to let this pass. Not by the price of this many users.
Also, have fun uploading all the stickam pics from the "known" artists.

Wypatroszony said:
Yeah, checking "unchecked" blogs (90% of users of such use pixiv/deviantart/etc. and place 95% of their "useful" content there), browsing twitter for sketches is totally "useful" too. And upload them, for what purpose if you are then going to catch the finished image from pixiv and receive all the glory?

True, a huge amount of content on artists blogs/twitter is stuff they have posted on pixiv, but there is always content that isn't posted on pixiv.
Since when on earth were sketches a bad thing? A huge amount of the time there is no completed version either (see parent:none sketch monochrome).
And honestly I don't give a damn about all the glory. Although it may be stupid, the entire reason I still upload is these two issues.
If people wanted I could essentially just run this bot on a seperate account, or we could you know, just remove the uploader status entirely (or make it invisible to everyone below mod, including the uploader) so there isn't an issue, and people can still be promoted if they actually do a good job uploading.

No, forcing others to search won't actually make them search. Danbooru is not ideal and its users won't change their ways only because you said so.

And ignoring it won't make them search either. I agree, danbooru is not ideal, that does not mean we shouldn't at least try to push users to looking for content. As you said, people won't look just because you tell them to, so you give them little choice. Make it difficult for people to upload easy content and they will have to look for useful stuff if they want to upload.

Also since when is pixiv necessarily "easy"? 95% of my uploads (from alst 3 months) are either from the little (amount of) artists I have bookmarked or from absolutely random roaming.

Pixiv is "easy" because you can essentially search for everything. It has tags for helping find character/copyright names, ratings for allowing you to actually find "decent" images. You have artist pages which essentially have everything they've uploaded in one spot.

Blogs and such do not have such a useful features. You cannot just simply search and find any decent image on the many blogs or twitter accounts out there. There is also a fair amount of artists who don't even have pixiv (or similar), instead they upload most of their content on twitter.

Also, have fun uploading all the stickam pics from the "known" artists.

You do know it's very easy to filter that kind of thing right?

And honestly I don't give a damn about all the glory.

Then what are you doing this for? To piss others off or what? Because fairly sure that majority of us takes it for a hobby (even those not tagging on the very moment of upload). They like the competition between each other (still being unfair, but what you are doing is far beyond being unfair, mind you).

Make it difficult for people to upload easy content and they will have to look for useful stuff if they want to upload.

Or basically kill the uploading community, because you got an itch on those who tag not enough on uploads. "6 citizens of X city are on the edge with me, I'll kill everyone I meet there and burn the town to the ground".
Limit yourself to that outer useful content and let pixiv be handled by people who want to handle it.

Pixiv is "easy" because you can essentially search for everything. It has tags for helping find character/copyright names, ratings for allowing you to actually find "decent" images.

So does google images. Does that make it an "easy" spot to look for arts? Not necessarily.

There is also a fair amount of artists who don't even have pixiv (or similar), instead they upload most of their content on twitter.

That would round to ~0.025% of all the people who draw decently and on topic with this site's standards.

You do know it's very easy to filter that kind of thing right?

If it's tagged as "stickam", sure. Pixiv isn't known for it's diligence to tagging though, in case you forgot.

I think using some upload bot (or upload script) is just about the worst thing you can do. Gt, anyone? This kills all motivation to upload.

Alas, the minimalistically tagged uploads ARE a problem that needs to be addressed. I mentioned having a certain number of tags as minimum for uploads several times. This should be quite easy to implement.

1 copyright tag - unless original tag
1 character tag - unless original, comic or no_human tag
3 general tags - unless comic tag

Comics should be an exception, because uploading multiple pages with varying characters is way easier to tag later. The rule can be applied maybe two hours later, though.

Uploads with anything less than above tags should either get rejected (easier solution) or the upload be credited to the first user who tags accordingly (better solution). Both ways will shoot down the "First!"-uploaders just fine.

I don't particularly have a problem with automatic uploads (it's clear that a number of users already use similar scripts), I also don't especially have a problem with beating out users that otherwise hover over Pixiv. There are always plenty of old posts and off-Pixiv posts around to be uploaded. I do have a problem with automatically uploading poor quality images, and undertagging or mistagging images.

While I don't have a problem with what DakuTree has done so far, on the contrary most of the best posts I've seen in recent weeks have been from him (or presumably his script). I would suggest caution in blindly accepting everything suggested by an algorithm though. I use a similar greasemonkey script to help auto-tag my uploads, and I've noticed sometimes either due to the artist mis-tagging their own post, or due to the script's output not exactly matching Danbooru, that things need manually adjusted. Almost always there will be things missing that are trivial for a human to tag (hair & eye color, etc).

If you aren't simply all about boosting your post-count, which I don't think you are, especially since you are already a Janitor, it might be best to have your system queue things up for your own approval. By that I mean it sets up it's own "mod queue" that you would have to go in and vet everything that passes through it. This would ensure that there is no chance of a bad post slipping through, or that tags get screwed up or missed. It also assuages the people that have concerns (for whatever reason) of a script grabbing everything as soon as it is available.

If you really cared to, you could even open it up to other members to approve and add tags to automatically generated posts. In either of these cases you could then allow your script to process artists that aren't virtually automatic Danbooru quality, and allow the script (with multiple users) to have a much greater throughput. By allowing other users into the equation you can also allow them to vouch for things that a system might not predict as being acceptable, or even outside your own tastes or thresholds (to be vetted by the real mod queue depending on who uploads it).

tl;dr: I have no real qualms with auto-uploading per se, but there is a real concern if the output of such a script causing poor quality uploads, undertagging, or mistagging. Adding a second level to the system that ensures a set of eyeballs actually sees and approves posts can eliminate all these potential problems.

While I don't have a problem with what DakuTree is doing (on the contrary most of the best posts I've seen in recent weeks have been from him (or presumably his script).

Come to think of it, Mr_GT also had the best uploads at the time being. Being best, because a user effectively denied everyone, has little to no meaning or value.
Not questioning Tree's taste.

While I understand what you are saying, I don't see it as being a primary concern unless there are additional problems to consider. Mr. GT was a problem because he chronically uploaded mediocre or poor images, and undertagged just about everything. If DakuTree does these things as well, it is a problem that needs rectified, because it reduces the quality of Danbooru as an image repository. If he doesn't, then his behavior isn't harming the site.

Edging out other users for uploads, while perhaps annoying and problematic to basic members' chances of promotion, is not a primary concern. Rules should be set based on how things affect Danbooru as a resource / repository, not on how they affect users' e-penises or egos. That said, the solution I provided above would mitigate both potential primary and secondary issues.

Wypatroszony said:
Then what are you doing this for? To piss others off or what? Because fairly sure that majority of us takes it for a hobby (even those not tagging on the very moment of upload). They like the competition between each other (still being unfair, but what you are doing is far beyond being unfair, mind you).

Right, if that was the case I wouldn't see this whole problem happening. I wouldn't see people I know can tag perfectly fine, minimally tagging on images that even have very few tags, even going to cases where copyright/character isn't even tagged even on a popular copyright.
People see a good image, they minimally tag, people see a mediocre image, they somehow tag fine. Strange how that works.
Then we have the people who downvote when they don't get first, you really can't tell me that is part of the "competition" too?

Or basically kill the uploading community, because you got an itch on those who tag not enough on uploads. "6 citizens of X city are on the edge with me, I'll kill everyone I meet there and burn the town to the ground".
Limit yourself to that outer useful content and let pixiv be handled by people who want to handle it.

Right, because having a huge amount of users stalk pixiv while few people actually look for content is really logical. I agree this is not the best way to go about solving this issue, hell I agree that it's kind of a dick move to uploaders, this is exactly why I've held off on posting this for so long, but honestly I can't see any other way that can actually fix this. It's already been mentioned in this thread, and you actually mentioned it yourself. You can't tell people to do things. The only way I can see about doing something about this is simply removing choice.

That would round to ~0.025% of all the people who draw decently and on topic with this site's standards.

True it's a small amount, but that was just an example. My point simply being is sites like pixiv can be searched. Hell, they can be filtered to the point where it becomes much easier (which is why I made PVDB ). We barely even have people doing that.

If it's tagged as "stickam", sure. Pixiv isn't known for it's diligence to tagging though, in case you forgot.

Nearly all the time there will be some part of the post that will have either a link or simply "stickam" ("配信" too I think?). You can essentially filter entirely by this.

Schrobby said:
I think using some upload bot (or upload script) is just about the worst thing you can do. Gt, anyone? This kills all motivation to upload.

I do agree on this. Honestly if there was something actually done about this problem to the point where I didn't need to run it, fair enough, but this problem does exactly the same thing.

Alas, the minimalistically tagged uploads ARE a problem that needs to be addressed. I mentioned having a certain number of tags as minimum for uploads several times. This should be quite easy to implement.

1 copyright tag - unless original tag
1 character tag - unless original, comic or no_human tag
3 general tags - unless comic tag
...
Uploads with anything less than above tags should either get rejected (easier solution) or the upload be credited to the first user who tags accordingly (better solution). Both ways will shoot down the "First!"-uploaders just fine.

I already suggested such a thing earlier in the thread but "it's not something that can be easily implemented" / "this is a non-problem" / "as long as the image is tagged soon afterwards it doesn't matter".

Comics should be an exception, because uploading multiple pages with varying characters is way easier to tag later. The rule can be applied maybe two hours later, though.

Although I can understand this a certain degree, I still see no reason for this. The image will still have to be tagged eventually, and more often than not it really isn't that hard to tag comics.

So it sounds as if the goal here is to prevent minimalistic uploading from happening in the first place? In that case, I suppose "stealing" an upload (while guaranteeing somehow that it is of sufficient quality and won't be undertagged yourself), is one way to go about it (though certainly not a way to become popular).

Perhaps it would be better to simply watch uploads and tally users who leave their uploads undertagged beyond some reasonable threshold (say a half hour or so), and then periodically publish a list of the worst offenders so that the Mod staff can see and make judgements to determine if their behavior is detrimental enough for a warning or a negative report. That would provide a list uploaders themselves could see so that they might be shamed into better behavior. You could also set a threshold where if people have less than a few violations they not make the list, so that with any luck eventually the list would be blank.

As for asking for automatic rules to be set up, or for the site to be re-programmed to reject minimally tagged posts, you are right, it is unlikely to ever happen for the simple fact that there do exist posts outside the norm that can't be tagged as they typically should be. Moreover, anything that penalizes users automatically for behavior that doesn't directly violate the rules is a bad idea.

In the end though if your script uploads good quality posts that somehow would have been overlooked otherwise, I still can't see it as being a negative thing. If anything turning it off would end up being a detriment (providing of course it doesn't violate quality or tagging requirements).

Shinjidude said:
In the end though if your script uploads good quality posts that somehow would have been overlooked otherwise, I still can't see it as being a negative thing.

I agree. I'm liking DakuTree's uploading approach lately, not at all because of any "me first" minimal tagging drama (which I've never gotten concerned with), but rather it's a good idea to upload good images as quickly as possible. You never know when a picture may be removed or updated.

Then we have the people who downvote when they don't get first, you really can't tell me that is part of the "competition" too?

I absolutely despise of downvoting good images, because someone else got it, but I can't say that who actually did get the upload doesn't have an impact on that... I think.

People see a good image, they minimally tag, people see a mediocre image, they somehow tag fine. Strange how that works.

I actually see nothing strange about it, it's only natural to be wanting the better stuff/stuff continuously uploaded over a long time and a few others found a value in it etc., even at the cost of being unfair. I'm not trying to justify the ill behavior (though it sure seems like that), but I'm able to see where exactly it comes from. And with how many people know a wide variety of tags, the tagging of recent uploads isn't much of a problem either.

Right, because having a huge amount of users stalk pixiv while few people actually look for content is really logical.

Turning that to "no users stalk pixiv while the same few people actually look for content" is just as logical.

The only way I can see about doing something about this is simply removing choice.

Then deal with those who "search for useful content" and still not tag worth a shit. What do you mean, it's not that simple?
The problem would persist anyway, people may or may not jump on blogs/twitters/nicoseiga of famous artists and stalk there, still uploading with little tags. Which would deem your method just as ineffective.

On the other hand, DakuTree, you've proven to be quite a skilled coder. Would you give it a shot to actually code something like you suggested earlier and what Schrobby did bring back a little while ago? And to try if it works, obviously. That's what I actually would support, with minimum existing gentags being 5, unless no_humans (3 if no_humans, without the actual no_humans). There are no posts which can't be tagged with 3 gentags, not even those outside the schemes, Shinji.
But then again, there is an issue of danbooru2 and no information about that over a long time whatsoever and which questions the thing to code anything on this one.

EB said:
it's a good idea to upload good images as quickly as possible. You never know when a picture may be removed or updated.

That's not something that wasn't being done before his appearance.

Wypatroszony said:
That's not something that wasn't being done before his appearance.

The more doing it, the better. I appreciate uploaders that "stalk" source sites, through whatever means they do (whether manually, or with a script, or whatever). It's always good to have high-quality images that may have been missed otherwise.

DakuTree said:
It causes good uploaders to leave

How will this not make that happen more then?

Seriously what are you even fixing with this? It sounds like you're just doing the same thing except that it's just you now. What's changed, besides the increased possiblity of uploading sub-par images?

Shinjidude said:
Perhaps it would be better to simply watch uploads and tally users who leave their uploads undertagged beyond some reasonable threshold (say a half hour or so), and then periodically publish a list of the worst offenders so that the Mod staff can see and make judgements to determine if their behavior is detrimental enough for a warning or a negative report. That would provide a list uploaders themselves could see so that they might be shamed into better behavior.

This would be an infinitly better idea.

EB said:
I agree. I'm liking DakuTree's uploading approach lately, not at all because of any "me first" minimal tagging drama (which I've never gotten concerned with), but rather it's a good idea to upload good images as quickly as possible. You never know when a picture may be removed or updated.

You actually say "First!" posts with tagme only are a good thing as long as it's a good picture because it could be deleted? Are you serious?

I can't agree to automating uploads using a script at all. Danbooru has been functioning just fine for years without it and I don't see any reason to change that now.

The fact that you've been doing this for months without telling anyone, not even the admins, just makes me question your motivations. This is something that you're supposed to discuss with the community and admins openly before actually doing it. This has always been the way things have been done here and every time someone took it upon themselves to try and change things how they saw fit without discussion has always led to more controversy than necessary.

I'm not buying for second your whole "oh I know it's a dick move but it had to be done" act. I can't see this as anything other than a thinly veiled attempt to justify screwing over other users in order to make yourself look better.

You've been here barely a year and have been a Janitor for even less and you think you have every right to try and do whatever you want and feel is best without any consent? Telling people how and/or where they should find their uploads and actively trying to discourage others from camping pixiv in an attempt to push this ideal is just sickening.

Hell, I'm going to go as far and say that you probably don't actually deserve that contributor/janitor position, since it's likely you got it through your script and not actual hard work. It's a fucking insult to everyone else that actually put in more time and effort to get to where they are now and didn't rely on some bot with a database.

Yes, I feel cheated. For a while now I've been trying to better myself by tagging more than just artist, character and copyright on new pixiv uploads. Hell, just this year was the first time I actually started using danboorup's auto-complete feature just to tag more. At first I thought DakuTree was just that fast of a tagger and I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't using some custom made script or the like to give himself an unfair advantage. But now that he's gone and openly admitted to doing just that, it just leaves me feeling extremely sour.

Blah.

DakuTree said:
This pushes people into actually "looking" for content. You make it impossible to watch pixiv, people then have to look. We get more "rare" content as a result.

Ahahaha. This is what happens when you cut humanities funding in schools, folks -- people get good at solving computational problems and bad at solving human problems.

Breaking news: humans are not mathematical models, and human effort is not freely redistributable. If you remove the 'simple' task of uploading from Pixiv, people will not move on to more complex tasks, they'll spend their time elsewhere. The net effect of this change is zero, except to remove human judgement from Pixiv uploads, which is exactly the opposite of what Danbooru is trying to do.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're not the first person to use a script to stalk Pixiv, you're just the first person to tell everyone. Insofar as this just makes you another one of the Pixiv-stalking crowd, I can't really bring myself to care that much about it -- except for the fact that you seem to genuinely think that this is a tenable solution to any problem ever, which, along with your clear anger over what is a relatively minor situation and your creepy paternalistic attitude, really makes me question your judgement as a human being.

Schrobby said:
You actually say "First!" posts with tagme only are a good thing as long as it's a good picture because it could be deleted? Are you serious?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I would rather them be uploaded quickly AND tagged very well. Bad taggers are inevitably called out when it gets increasingly problematic.

EB said:
I would rather them be uploaded quickly AND tagged very well.

This still isn't something that wasn't being done. In the end they were both uploaded quickly AND tagged (very) well.

Wypatroszony said:
This still isn't something that wasn't being done. In the end they were both uploaded quickly AND tagged (very) well.

I know, I know. I just had to respond to someone who thought I was somehow being an advocate for bad tagging.

That comment was more about my distaste for the drama in this thread in general (while I like DakuTree's uploading approach, I disagree with the reasoning he made in this thread), which is why I had never posted in it for much of its existence. I just don't get the fury over being "beaten to the punch" on an image. When I come across a great image that has already been uploaded, I'm happy that it hasn't been overlooked, rather than being upset I'm not the one who uploaded it.

This whole theory is ridiculous. Only one thing can force someone to search out new artists and that's initiative. When 4get started using a script or whatever to auto-upload gofu within minutes of his posting a new image or other people determined poaaju is awesome did I search out new artists? Fuck no, I don't have time to go through a hundred artists to find one whose style I like.

I just stopped uploading.