Concern about upload approvals and what it means to uploaders

Okay, despite being a relatively new uploader (I mostly upload league_of_legends stuff) I am concerned about trending uploaded image approvals. In a nutshell, I don't see any results that all images of various game/anime series or categories, etc., really get considered for approval equally. The best thing I can do is give an example: I see pretty much every single Touhou or hatsune_miku image get approved immediately upon uploading, while images from other series or what have you float around with the dreaded blue outline for days.

I am not assuming that there is mod approval bias, because I don't want to assume that approval mods are required to examine every image that comes their way, but I see a lot of images that I and others upload that I honestly believe are good quality images, just get deleted due to 3 days of no approval.

I understand that there is a general rule of thumb that uploaders should assume that images that are not approved in 3 days were generally looked at by at least 10 mod queue janitors or mods, but I personally do not believe that a lot of what I and others upload is unworthy of approval and I get the feeling that it gets ignored. I have talked to one relatively long-standing uploader about this and we agree that there is either bias or that's just how the system works here on Danbooru.

Now before I get jumped on for thinking that what I do is great and that I am amazing and deserve credit for what I do, I am actually not complaining about the lack of approvals of my uploads. Instead, I am concerned about approval trends and how this may discourage uploaders like myself who really want to upload great artwork (I really do try to find the best of the best when I can, after a few upload mishaps) but get our images stuck in the mod queue despite most qualifying for Danbooru's standards.

I have been lurking on Danbooru for years now. I love the images that I've been able to see and decided recently to contribute some artwork to this place myself. I joined the Pixiv-to-Danbooru upload bandwagon and have been bringing some League of Legends pictures here, as the site seemed to be lacking such content despite all the great Pixiv content just waiting to be seen. I wanted to expand the diversity and image portfolio of Danbooru, and it synced well with my interest in League of Legends. However, if I am stuck trying to upload images with janitors and mods supposedly working around the clock to approve "worthy" images, only to get stuck at the upload limit waiting so I can upload more amazing artwork I find, it's disheartening. I am not nearly worthy of being a Contributor, but I attempt to upload the best quality artwork I can find if I have free upload limit spots open.

Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to be biased because there's no evidence that approvers are biased in their approvals. It's understandable that approvers can be fans of certain artwork and that quality is in the eye of the beholder, but I really get discouraged when my images float around for days. There's no indication that my images were considered, no way of knowing that images were looked at by an X # of approvers in the mod queue before they go the way of the trash.

Again, sorry if this comes across as pointed or critical, or if I repeated myself a bunch using different wording. I just wanted to point out an observation and share how I feel when I pour a lot of effort into searching for images, uploading them, adding artists for them if necessary and tagging them as best I can...only to have 12 or so images suddenly get deleted due to lack of approval in 3 days. It makes me not want to contribute as much to Danbooru if my efforts are going to go to waste, despite how much I appreciate how much great artwork Danbooru has exposed me to and how much I want to give back to it.

I'd love to be argued against or proven wrong on any of the points I mentioned in this post.

im in no better position to say this but the reality of mod queue system is indeed bias. approval is always subjective by nature and you can never be objective 100%. and i read a similar response somewhere before just too lazy to look for it now.

however, the mod team is composed of varied individuals. ideally, one represents a specific interest. this somehow "balances" the system to cater different interests among the userbase.

in any case, you can always appeal worthy posts at forum #12247

Just FYI, searching "touhou status:deleted" returns 716 pages (as of this post), not to mention the whole touhou issue is old hat.

It seems that you've also started to use the appeal thread, but with all due respect, my opinion would be that they're still not likely to pass the mod queue. I love LoL as well, but many times when I trundle (see what I did there?) around on pixiv League_of_Legends search, most of what I see is pretty sub-par according to my personal understanding of Danbooru's standards.

As for bias, since quality is subjective, it's inevitable. However, erring on the side of quality is preferable to lowering standards for the lowest common denominator (not saying that you are the LCD) in order to preserve an overall high quality image-viewing experience. That being said, we all still come across approved items that are head-scratchers, but that's just how it is, I suppose. Hopefully, the diversity of the mods can ensure that the majority of "worthy" pictures make it past the three-day mark.

I know it's difficult to compete with power uploaders running scripts and/or scanning pixiv full-time, but the best thing I can think of is to find your niche (which appears to be LoL), tweak your understanding of "Danbooru-quality" accordingly, and give it time.

The starting point would be

forum #63133
forum #44638
forum #44678

It has been talked about many times is generally no specific subject matter has dramatically more approvals except for the odd situation.

1. The mod queue is completely subjective with some basic objective rules.

2. Certain content is posted with far more frequency then other content.

3. Popular content will have more people looking at it and more mods approving it.

4. Popular content also will have a lot more mods blacklisting it.

5. All images are looked at not always closely though.

Now to address your post part by part.

Kakyoin01 said:
Okay, despite being a relatively new uploader (I mostly upload league_of_legends stuff) I am concerned about trending uploaded image approvals. In a nutshell, I don't see any results that all images of various game/anime series or categories, etc., really get considered for approval equally. The best thing I can do is give an example: I see pretty much every single Touhou or hatsune_miku image get approved immediately upon uploading, while images from other series or what have you float around with the dreaded blue outline for days.

Almost all art with some exceptions has around the same approval ratio. A shit ton (and I mean a shit ton) of touhou does not get approved.

I think forum #63133 had the general breakdown. I was the OP who asked the question so I am familiar with your feelings.

I am not assuming that there is mod approval bias, because I don't want to assume that approval mods are required to examine every image that comes their way, but I see a lot of images that I and others upload that I honestly believe are good quality images, just get deleted due to 3 days of no approval.

Quality is incredibly subjective.

Also the image has to be interesting in some way. Either the content is generally liked or it catches someones interest.

Best thing to do is use forum #45532. You will get an answer as to why it was deleted.

I understand that there is a general rule of thumb that uploaders should assume that images that are not approved in 3 days were generally looked at by at least 10 mod queue janitors or mods, but I personally do not believe that a lot of what I and others upload is unworthy of approval and I get the feeling that it gets ignored. I have talked to one relatively long-standing uploader about this and we agree that there is either bias or that's just how the system works here on Danbooru.

Looked at does not mean the mod is interested in the content. No interest, no approval. It is how the system works.

Looking at your unapproved images, some are so so art others are not particularly interesting.

Also while one mod has the bulk of the approvals for you, you do have approvals from at least 5 different mods.

That should be a sign that posts are getting looked at.

Now before I get jumped on for thinking that what I do is great and that I am amazing and deserve credit for what I do, I am actually not complaining about the lack of approvals of my uploads. Instead, I am concerned about approval trends and how this may discourage uploaders like myself who really want to upload great artwork (I really do try to find the best of the best when I can, after a few upload mishaps) but get our images stuck in the mod queue despite most qualifying for Danbooru's standards.

Danbooru quality is only a baseline for what is acceptable. It has beyond that nothing do with a mod actually approving your images.

Again it is a matter of personal preference. If no mod particularly likes an images it will not get approved no matter how do it is.

I have been lurking on Danbooru for years now. I love the images that I've been able to see and decided recently to contribute some artwork to this place myself. I joined the Pixiv-to-Danbooru upload bandwagon and have been bringing some League of Legends pictures here, as the site seemed to be lacking such content despite all the great Pixiv content just waiting to be seen. I wanted to expand the diversity and image portfolio of Danbooru, and it synced well with my interest in League of Legends. However, if I am stuck trying to upload images with janitors and mods supposedly working around the clock to approve "worthy" images, only to get stuck at the upload limit waiting so I can upload more amazing artwork I find, it's disheartening. I am not nearly worthy of being a Contributor, but I attempt to upload the best quality artwork I can find if I have free upload limit spots open.

There are a lot of images to sort through and some mods are far more active then others.

Anyway see above.

Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to be biased because there's no evidence that approvers are biased in their approvals. It's understandable that approvers can be fans of certain artwork and that quality is in the eye of the beholder, but I really get discouraged when my images float around for days. There's no indication that my images were considered, no way of knowing that images were looked at by an X # of approvers in the mod queue before they go the way of the trash.

You can always appeal them. If a lot of your appeals go through there could be an issue.

You can't assume anything with regards to how many look at any given image.

Trust me you just can't.

Again, sorry if this comes across as pointed or critical, or if I repeated myself a bunch using different wording. I just wanted to point out an observation and share how I feel when I pour a lot of effort into searching for images, uploading them, adding artists for them if necessary and tagging them as best I can...only to have 12 or so images suddenly get deleted due to lack of approval in 3 days. It makes me not want to contribute as much to Danbooru if my efforts are going to go to waste, despite how much I appreciate how much great artwork Danbooru has exposed me to and how much I want to give back to it.

This is the core of the problem. What you might feel is good (and you have admitted to this) might not be another person's cup to tea.

Also you are getting way too hung up on the whole "danbooru quality" aspect of approvals. Again it is only a baseline for what is acceptable nothing more.

I'd love to be argued against or proven wrong on any of the points I mentioned in this post.

See any of the topics I linked. It is what it is.

Also be aware you are going to get some VERY blunt responses to this topic.

Responses are to PyroLight.

Looked at does not mean the mod is interested in the content. No interest, no approval. It is how the system works.

I see. It's good to get a confirmation on that, at least.

Looking at your unapproved images, some are so so art others are not particularly interesting.

Also while one mod has the bulk of the approvals for you, you do have approvals from at least 5 different mods.

That should be a sign that posts are getting looked at.

I am well aware that some of the art I have previously uploaded that has gotten deleted, was "so-so" and wasn't up to high quality standards (as subjective as that may be). And my concern was not to get confirmation that mods are looking at my posts (that is very obvious based on the approvers), it was my lack of understanding of the system in general and how it was sometimes discouraging me.

You can always appeal them. If a lot of your appeals go through there could be an issue.

Already planned to do so for images I think are fine. One re-examination per image can't hurt, and I am aware of how judicious to be when posting up images to be re-examined after initial deletion.

You can't assume anything with regards to how many look at any given image.

Trust me you just can't.

And I didn't assume. In fact, I was actually half-inquiring if there was a way to see which or how many mods looked at each image before it was deleted. I don't expect this to become a feature, but it would be interesting to at least consider (although it's probably been considered already).

This is the core of the problem. What you might feel is good (and you have admitted to this) might not be another person's cup to tea.

Also you are getting way too hung up on the whole "danbooru quality" aspect of approvals. Again it is only a baseline for what is acceptable nothing more.

See any of the topics I linked. It is what it is.

I don't think there is a "problem" at all. I just wasn't entirely sure that that was how the system worked, it just seemed to be trending that way based on my observations. I intended to get some answers in the first place by starting this.

Also be aware you are going to get some VERY blunt responses to this topic.

Good, I don't mind it. Bring on the bluntness! If it gets the point across quickly without wasting time, so be it. I was only searching for some answers, as I've consulted with one other well-known Danbooru user about this but one answer is often not enough. If that's the nature of the beast, so be it. All I can do is just contribute and see what happens.

Thanks for the long, detailed response.

EDIT:

Also the image has to be interesting in some way. Either the content is generally liked or it catches someones interest.

I am glad that this is factored in as well. There are some images that aren't the best quality but are hilarious, a parody or otherwise are interesting or entertaining. I fully support this unwritten metric.

EDIT: Responses are to recklessfirex.

It seems that you've also started to use the appeal thread, but with all due respect, my opinion would be that they're still not likely to pass the mod queue. I love LoL as well, but many times when I trundle (see what I did there?) around on pixiv League_of_Legends search, most of what I see is pretty sub-par according to my personal understanding of Danbooru's standards.

As for bias, since quality is subjective, it's inevitable. However, erring on the side of quality is preferable to lowering standards for the lowest common denominator (not saying that you are the LCD) in order to preserve an overall high quality image-viewing experience. That being said, we all still come across approved items that are head-scratchers, but that's just how it is, I suppose. Hopefully, the diversity of the mods can ensure that the majority of "worthy" pictures make it past the three-day mark.

As you yourself said, it's all biased. If I think the images are still worthy of approval (and at least one in that deletion appeal thread that I posted was already un-deleted) it's okay for me to submit them on that thread. If others think I'm off my rocker and I'm just plain wrong, then they won't be approved. That's fine, I've come to accept that. I'm fairly confident that I can judiciously appeal artwork without flooding the thread unreasonably.

[...] the best thing I can think of is to find your niche (which appears to be LoL), tweak your understanding of "Danbooru-quality" accordingly, and give it time.

This is great to point out and a good reminder for me. This is probably the best place to look for deciding on "Danbooru-quality".

Just to touch on a few points

Kakyoin01 said:

And my concern was not to get confirmation that mods are looking at my posts (that is very obvious based on the approvers), it was my lack of understanding of the system in general and how it was sometimes discouraging me.

I was addressing (specifically the last sentence):

I understand that there is a general rule of thumb that uploaders should assume that images that are not approved in 3 days were generally looked at by at least 10 mod queue janitors or mods, but I personally do not believe that a lot of what I and others upload is unworthy of approval and I get the feeling that it gets ignored.

It really came across as you questioning if the mods are really looking at your images or passing them by.

And I didn't assume. In fact, I was actually half-inquiring if there was a way to see which or how many mods looked at each image before it was deleted. I don't expect this to become a feature, but it would be interesting to at least consider (although it's probably been considered already).

Partly my response came from still having the above question in my head and poor phrasing on my part.

I should have said:

Forget it, it will never happen. That would cause so much more trouble then it was worth.

Basically think what it would be like when image A got looked at 10 times and got approved. Image B got looked at 20 times and not approved. Image C got looked at 5 times and not approved.

Accept that "ten" mods look at the images and leave it at that. Generally it is likely to be the case but when it isn't having a log would do nothing but have people getting on the mods cases and that would be a bad thing.

I don't think there is a "problem" at all. I just wasn't entirely sure that that was how the system worked, it just seemed to be trending that way based on my observations. I intended to get some answers in the first place by starting this.

The subjective nature of approvals is a problem but it is not one that can be fixed.

Thanks for the long, detailed response.

Your welcome.

EDIT:
I am glad that this is factored in as well. There are some images that aren't the best quality but are hilarious, a parody or otherwise are interesting or entertaining. I fully support this unwritten metric.

Just to touch on this a bit further.

The image still has to be of danbooru quality, you might find that someone will approve an image that would not otherwise be approved if it is completely normal.

Something unique to the image really helps to get it noticed and can lower the bar on approval a little bit, but it is always best to make sure it is "danbooru quality".

There have been cases where a very bad image (quality) has gotten approved because it tickled a mods fancy but it is rare.

Really the only time quality takes a back seat to the interest of an image is for comics. Generally the art is not expected to be as good since the story compensates but even then if the art is bad enough or the story is dull they won't get approved.

Basically think of the interest aspect as getting your posts noticed by more people and as potentially is some cases the deciding factor on an image.

P.S.

Another reason to put the art first is due to the flagging system.

Pyrolight said:
It really came across as you questioning if the mods are really looking at your images or passing them by.

Actually yes, it was. It is stated that we should assume that 10 mods on average look at each image, but my observations were clashing against that. However, confirmation provided by people in this thread has since denied the evidence of my observations. Everyone is just different, that's how it works.

I should have said:

Forget it, it will never happen. That would cause so much more trouble then it was worth.

Again, this is fine. I was only touching on the subject briefly. Some problems are too much trouble to make them worth being fixed, and since Danbooru isn't safety-critical software or anything of the sort it's hardly an issue.

I personally see no more reasons to continue this thread, I think everything has been touched on and I thank everyone for their efforts in enlightening/confirming for me. But if others want to have more discussion I'd be up for it.

EDIT: I've gotten mail about this as well, thanks to everyone for the timely, constructive feedback. In conclusion, I honestly have learned/realized a lot about what Danbooru art quality really is, and I think the solution is for me to raise my standards on what I choose to upload here. Being a non-paying viewer and contributor, I realized that there are many people who pay for a great Danbooru experience. Keeping this in mind, only the best of the best should be uploaded (regardless of what I see others uploading and how good or bad quality I think it is).

When I'm done with replying to whatever was left not as fully replied to as it is, I'll use this thread for ranting. Very heavy ranting. Could warrant another thread, but this one covers it sufficiently.

@Kakyoin01:
From the perspective of an approver, I must admit that I try to be as equal as possible to everything that appears here.
Let me tell you something about touhou and hatsune_miku uploads. Around 85% of them is uploaded by Contributors or higher. Therefore, they don't even appear in the mod queue to begin with. I hardly ever witness Touhou in the queue in cases different than flags.

I understand that there is a general rule of thumb that uploaders should assume that images that are not approved in 3 days were generally looked at by at least 10 mod queue janitors or mods, but I personally do not believe that

The 3-day-old posts in the mod queue generally have 9-15 Janitors that hid it from appearing in there. I don't know how many actually diligiently look through the queue and how many click "hide all" by default, but that is not something I'll ever discover.

@recklessfirex

Just FYI, searching "touhou status:deleted" returns 716 pages (as of this post), not to mention the whole touhou issue is old hat.

I'll use the example I used in a certain dmail over a month ago. I've compared the two month time-stamp of 21st May to 21st July of years 2011 and 2012 for touhou -banned_artist -comic search.
For year 2011: 8284 touhou posts, 620 of which are deleted (7.5% deletion ratio)
For year 2012: 9975 touhou posts, only 189 deleted (<2% deletion ratio)
Just for future reference.

Now it's time for (aimed mainly at several Contribs+)
General ranting!
I am getting increasingly tired of what some of you do with this site. I mod for a month and I have far more issues against "those over the queue".
The mentioned by Pyrolight "danbooru quality" is reaching the state of "a rock bottom" thanks to a part of you. And, of course, mainly with the usage of Touhou.
I am aware of the increasing activity and community on pixiv and with that, more images daily.
We need to change our attitude towards the quality for images (comics excluded). The situation is dire and it needs actions, if we don't want to be a "gelbooru with less guro".

I. The most itching sphere, flagging garbage (or whatnot) and (re)approving of said garbage (comics and story pools excluded).
Yes, many hate is being gathered (and is to be gathered after this wall of text), but that's a thing I care least about. What I have issues with is ESPECIALLY the approval for:
1. Poorly drawn chibis. Yes, things like this exist. Crappy drawn, because proportions don't matter by definition. F.e.: post #1249087 . Approved, flagged, nearly instantly reapproved. It really is crude, no matter what you say about it. "Cute"? Since when is "cute" a quality value? And on the other hand, since when is "disgusting" one either? Garbage is garbage and it's place is "outside".
2. General sub-par/poorly drawn imagery. It's not like there aren't 6000 better images of [character]. Approving "because there are worse" is a curse. If "there are worse" then I want them either flagged or listed for me to flag so there aren't any more "worse". You disagree? Then look at the wiki homepage's point 1. The line between good/average/sub-par is very vague. But let's put it this way. post #1213041 is sub-par (and deleted as it should). post #1218851 is of the "average tier" as are most of harusame's creations. Approvable, but not by anyone. "Good" is everything that's drawn with proper proportions/foreshortenings/shadings/literally everything with some slight flaws like a small amount of hair behind the eyes, being slightly rough (fe. post#1247068), etc.
II. Sub-par uploads without the mod check.
Of course you all know where is this going.
Himegami_Akane aka MR_GT v.2.1, literally flooding the base since July '12 with sub-pars which shouldn't have even been here. On the matter of three days I checked (4th-6th September) there are at least 80 posts I'd intend to flag, 78 of which are yours.
Why in the world are you doing this? Is "mocking the quality" such a fine sport for you? At the top of it, you are aware of that (half(?), ever since you started whoring the front on pixiv[is there a better term for that kind of activity?]) your uploads are "sub-par". But you still did upload them, unaffected by the queue. You are one of the most disappointing members to ever receive the Contributor in my opinion. Or rather one, that should have never received it. Uploading garbage, which was approved by extremely touhou friendly Janitors is nowhere close to contributing. Or is it just me and my twisted vision of that some sense of quality still exist?
III. My intentions and "visions".
I want to be assured that when I flag 70 posts, they won't get approved simply because 'Wypatroszony is over-reacting'. There is no place for "over-reacting" when there is hardly any reacting whatsoever.
I'd like all Touhou oriented Janitors to harshly bump their standards for Touhou and not to consider "cute" as an approval warrant. Yes, content also matters so when something is "average" but has a witty/deep content, it should stay (may sometimes need a translator to judge). No, "artist's style" isn't a valid approval reason either.
And to top it all, I need backup if we are to actually restore (induce?) some glory here. It's for "a better booru content". "Not becoming gelbooru" is at stake. And I need you, to help me prevent it.

Damn, that's one hell of a rant.

Valuable rant, though. As a new user I was perplexed as to why some of my uploads weren't approved (and even questioned why it existed), but after seeing a lot of horrible-quality uploads, it made a lot more sense. Danbooru's standards need to be bumped up significantly; most new uploads are so bad that I don't understand how they got through the mod queue or somehow convinced a contributor to upload them.

And before somebody brings the argument up, if I wanted "as much art as possible" I'd just browse Pixiv. Not Danbooru.

Thanks for the insight on the mod queue and approvals, Wypatroszony. I didn't expect what I thought to actually be somewhat true, I was just observing.

In any case, I now know that I need to focus on higher uploading standards first and foremost.

Locking this it's not going to go anywhere productive.