Question: Uploading with minimal tags.

I really find this to be a non-issue. As Action Kamen says above this is a two sided issue, the first being posts getting tagged insufficiently, and the other being the "first" e-peen argument.

In my opinion the first issue would be real problem if it was what was happening. Insufficiently tagged posts have no handles to allow them to be retrieved via search, thus they are basically lost once they get buried (unless someone tries to upload that image again later and tags it). While not everything gets tagged to the thoroughness I'd like to see, it's rare that a post goes more than a day without someone adding the essentials. As you note, there are exceptions, and those posts should be gone through, tagged, and if there are trouble users among those posts, PM's or records given, otherwise I haven't seen it as a large problem lately.

The second issue of being "first" and establishing your e-peen is really irrelevant to the site's functionality (collecting and annotating good artwork, and making it available to others). I agree that it's frustrating to find a great post, see it's not yet in IQDB, and then that it was recently posted with few tags. But what was actually done wrong in that case, especially if the uploader is more thoroughly tagging it that very moment? If this happens to me, I simply tag and translate, vote, and move on.

Furthermore in many circumstances it is easier to do a better job tagging after the fact. For a series of images with slight changes, copy-pasting the common elements and going back later to tag the diverging details is easier and more efficient. For cases where the preview doesn't load or is missing from the upload page it's better to fill in the rough details from memory and then tag thoroughly when you can see the image.

If you are concerned about not being able to post good images at all, I'd suggest you look for less popular or older series, or for sources other than Pixiv. There is a ton of good stuff out there that has yet to be posted and is under no time-crunch to find. Even for Pixiv, the service you (DakuTree) provided makes it quite easy to find good Pixiv posts that have been passed over.

TL;DR:
Insufficient tagging is a real problem, but simply posting with few tags doesn't cause it.

Not being able to get "first" or enhance your own stats by posting new images can be frustrating, but doesn't adversely affect the site's functionality, and isn't a real problem that needs new policy to remedy.

My stance has not changed from the other times this has come up.

1) We are not going to set automatically-enforced, programmed rules on number of tags.

2) Comprehensive tagging is nonetheless preferred. Someone who tags only the bare minimum (or less) should not get user rank upgrades, and polite neutral records encouraging them to add a few general tags are warranted.

3) Caveat on sex/violence tags. Habitually leaving out tags like loli, shota, guro, amputee, peeing, etc is grounds for a lengthy ban.

4) "First" is stupid shit but it's not a problem that needs to be actively policed as long as they're still tagging it within a short time of uploading (a few minutes at most).

Basically, same feeling as Shinjidude.

One-tagging was, is and probably will be an issue till the end of days of Danbooru. Personally, I happens to me to one-tag one or two arts from time to time, but at the end of the day I tag them as well as I only can (at times with some legwaer tagging problems).

As for an idea presented in your thread : http://danbooru.donmai.us/forum/show/76141
I can assure you : one or two people out there will be so desperate to browse English dictionary/Danbooru tagging help and tag every, even the most insignificant/ridiculous (like I think that Asuka from NGE has red hair instead of orange and so on) part of one work, just to take over your uploader status. Besides, timers would generate only additional overhead on running servers. That's all from my side.

HNTI said:
As for an idea presented in your thread : http://danbooru.donmai.us/forum/show/76141
I can assure you : one or two people out there will be so desperate to browse English dictionary/Danbooru tagging help and tag every, even the most insignificant/ridiculous (like I think that Asuka from NGE has red hair instead of orange and so on) part of one work, just to take over your uploader status. Besides, timers would generate only additional overhead on running servers. That's all from my side.

That is true, as it would get rid of the problem to create another. Another thing I didn't think of when I wrote that was mainly the whole issue of, each time the post is loaded, it would have to check to see if the image is hidden. Which I'm assuming would cause more issues.

Anyways, regarding this whole thing, decided to just try and avoid the whole "Pixiv Rush". As that is more or less where my complaints/frustrations are coming from. It would be nice to have some kind of system, but as has been mentioned, it's not exactly something that can implemented, nor something that can be 100% fixed.

About the "being first" debate, I want to add something that possibly isn't part of DakuTree's point but is an actual problem, as it does "adversely affect the site's functionality", to quote Shinjidude's words.

Users trying to reach a decent postcount for Contributor level.

It's pretty much impossible to get a good posting rate, let alone reliable, without monitoring Pixiv. Even more so as:
- you want to minimize deletions (though maybe that part isn't such a problem anymore with the newer Janitors),
- being new to the job, you don't have the weaponry that experienced uploaders may use (bookmarks of milkable artists, knowledge of Japanese, registeration on various artists communities, greasemonkey scripts, RSS feeds, personal contacts with artists, etc.)

You want Contributor level to have the freedom to post whatever danbooru quality content you found, that sadly happens to have few approvers.
In case this would sound like mere theorycrafting, here is an hilarious example of my own experience last year.
I'm aware that the few Contributors invites per yer (10-15?) make this a pretty specific issue but still.

In order to get promoted, you need to boost your stats to look trustworthy, or to get noticed at all.
Now, in my case (and I want to think I couldn't have been the only one), I wanted to do it in a time-efficient manner since it wasted the time I'd normally spend gardening, or digging artists' links for missed images... sometimes deleted after 3 days.
So naturally I went stalking the popular/quality tags on Pixiv, what everyone already does, planning to steal "their" uploads since I'm normally not there. And on top of that I'm going to have to send the uploads half tagged because the time frame is desperately too small.

It's already counterproductive enough as is, but it gets even more absurd when the rusher is a Contributor, or worse, an elder Janitor (congrats you got denied by your approver!), who unlike you have no "need" for the post.
ShadowbladeEdge, you became Contributor during the Mr_GT era and before that you went through a period where Janitors were somewhat missing, so I don't quite get how you can say today that rushing uploads does no harm.

> So, in order to help lower levels uploaders to get more spotlight, personally I'd like to see 2 steps tagging allowed only for them, while Contrib+ users repeatedly caught doing so earning at least a neutral record.
However the problem with this is that it creates a double standard with Contrib+ users who naturally have a poor tagging standard regardless of rushes:

Shinjidude said:
Insufficiently tagged posts have no handles to allow them to be retrieved via search, thus they are basically lost once they get buried (unless someone tries to upload that image again later and tags it). While not everything gets tagged to the thoroughness I'd like to see, it's rare that a post goes more than a day without someone adding the essentials. As you note, there are exceptions, and those posts should be gone through, tagged, and if there are trouble users among those posts, PM's or records given, otherwise I haven't seen it as a large problem lately.

I wonder about this.

UnChocolate is a lazy tagger and a huge posting machine, in such a way that she pretty much needs her own gardener. Look how many users have helped completing her posts ever since she started.
Gardeners are for old images and new or underused tags, not for basic stuff you can't be bothered with.
We're far from having enough gardeners to take care of extra work like this, so this is unacceptable to me.

And yet, I know how time consuming finding images to upload is, especially as UnChocolate generally isn't a rusher and posts a lot of older missed images.
So what if the extra time taken to finish tagging her uploads means less time to find other images? As we know, it's still better for a post to be drowned in the depths of danbooru than drowned in the depths of pixiv.

As long as we can't do anything against this, blaming usually more diligent uploaders for lowering their standards during rushes doesn't make much sense.

> Second, this stupid game wouldn't be so much of a problem if promotions were delivered in a reasonable time, which only happens rarely and unpredictably.
The wiki's myth that says or used to say that users worthy of an invite will get noticed in due time is wrong. For having helped to promote around 80 users over 2 years (4 in this very thread) I can safely say that things aren't going that well, and I hope the new Mods are going to make a difference now.
Janitors are able to request their own promotion so why not Builders, Contributors and Mods?

Cyberia-Mix said:

I thought these problems have already been answered by jxh2154.

dean_exia said:

I thought these problems have already been answered by jxh2154.

Endless rehashing of debates, on Danbooru?

Perish the thought.

dean_exia said:

I thought these problems have already been answered by jxh2154.

I think cyberia mix brought up some good points. Like how for new uploaders rushing an upload is the only way to get the edge over experienced users who DON'T need to be noticed but whore out uploads anyway. I don't know where he was going with that because the block text is huge, but it is a valid point.

If you want to be noticed don't take artists from people who have contributor status, find new artists that haven't been discovered by anyone either by browsing crosslinks on artists' blogs or just skimming through a less-uploaded tag on pixiv like original or creation or one of the variations therein.

Cyberia-Mix said:
Janitors are able to request their own promotion so why not Builders, Contributors and Mods?

You're not requesting a promotion to janitor you're volunteering to do a shitty job with little to no reward.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about. It's not like uploading pics is the only way to get noticed and promoted. You can do tons of other things, like tag gardening, participating in the forums, giving Albert 20 bucks, etc.

Why don't people make a fuss over who'll be the first to populate an underused tag, or find and tag sources and artists, or translate a comic or something? These are equally (or even more) important contributions to Danbooru than uploading.

Fred1515 said:
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. It's not like uploading pics is the only way to get noticed and promoted. You can do tons of other things, like tag gardening, participating in the forums, giving Albert 20 bucks, etc.

Why don't people make a fuss over who'll be the first to populate an underused tag, or find and tag sources and artists, or translate a comic or something? These are equally (or even more) important contributions to Danbooru than uploading.

I populate near-empty tags all the time, but I've realised no-one actually gives a fuck.

I used to actually give two shits but I realized that the race to be the first to upload stuff from pixiv is to put it bluntly, fucking stupid.

If I don't upload that image that was just posted to pixiv I know someone else will 3 seconds later.

It's not like I am finding something that would otherwise not have been posted. I just happened to see it first.

I tend to agree with those that think finding older or non pixiv images to be far more useful then just uploading new images from pixiv before the other guy.

Yeah. These days it's freaking impossible to get anything uploaded during the pixiv rush, like being first to get to Mizuki's 4koma before anyone else (for that you gotta outspeed Schrobby but it's just plain pointless). But again, it's just one of those things that we really can't enforced in a draconian manner unless it get's really out of hand.

Besides, like Pyro said, finding older images that somehow get skipped over is better treasure as opposed to something newer.

Log said:
If you want to be noticed don't take artists from people who have contributor status, find new artists that haven't been discovered by anyone either by browsing crosslinks on artists' blogs or just skimming through a less-uploaded tag on pixiv like original or creation or one of the variations therein.

Pyrolight said:
I tend to agree with those that think finding older or non pixiv images to be far more useful then just uploading new images from pixiv before the other guy.

Don't you LOVE it when you find and start uploading some obscure artist on pixiv or a blog; a cool artist that you like who illustrates stuff that meets danbooru's quality; only to log on some time later and find someone stalking him. Then you're forced to find another dude then the process repeats itself.

I love it.

i have this idea highly unlikely to be implemented but i would like to mention anyway regarding the "being first".

the issue stems from how the system works and what type of attitude it stirs apparently among the community. danbooru doesn't trust uploads of basic members that's why we have mod queue. it's under the assumption that users will likely upload are terrible and unworthy.

one must attain the contributor status to bypass mod queue. and generally the accepted and proven way is to upload 'high quality' art by the numbers. to minimize deletion penalty, one must subscribe to 'hot' artists/copyrights to increase chances of approval. this breeds competition and thus "being first". of course there are other ways.

uploaders tend to be possessive of 'their' artists as sources of 'their' fix. if another uploader beats them on time they harbor ill feelings which i find ridiculous and unhealthy to the community.

the contributor status should be seen as a reward for contributing decent works to share and NOT to avoid the queue.

my proposal would be to give new attractive powers to contributors and modify the moderation process.

any uploaded work from the basic member should start status:active. with this we eliminate the race to be first, slipping out of decent works, and lengthy appeals.

moderation now will be limited to flagged posts or those needing quality check. janitor+ work will decrease exponentially as they require approving only of questionable quality that was brought into their attention.

the key would be the new powers/benefits of contributors. i can think of some like flagging starts at this level. when a post receives a flag/thumbs down (with reason supplied) from at least 2 contribs it goes to queue.

if a post receives at least 5 negative votes (from contribs) it's deleted immediately; if it reaches 10, then it's unappealable.

we can also set a flagging immunity to contributors for a period of time.

so how one becomes a contributor? one way would be uploading works of quality and not quantity. quality means lesser flags/thumbs down from EXPERIENCED contributors.

i know it's quite a radical change, but i do hope something like this or a part of it gets implemented in the future.

ghostrigger said:
the issue stems from how the system works and what type of attitude it stirs apparently among the community. danbooru doesn't trust uploads of basic members that's why we have mod queue. it's under the assumption that users will likely upload are terrible and unworthy.
...
one must attain the contributor status to bypass mod queue. and generally the accepted and proven way is to upload 'high quality' art by the numbers.

The problem doesn't seem to with the mod queue though, nor people trying to obtain contributor status. Most of the uploaders that are doing this are either contributor or higher, meaning the "need" to upload first is gone.

any uploaded work from the basic member should start status:active. with this we eliminate the race to be first, slipping out of decent works, and lengthy appeals.
...
if a post receives at least 5 negative votes (from contribs) it's deleted immediately; if it reaches 10, then it's unappealable.

Problem with this, there is several posts that get downvoted for the content rather than the art. (Recent example could be post #1018600)
There is also posts that get upvoted for the content rather than the art. (Most of rating:e etc)

dean_exia said:
I thought these problems have already been answered by jxh2154.

I'm bringing up a new point about how users who deserve Contrib status have to unnecessarily waste a huge time to get it and why rushed uploads on pixiv are a big part of the problem.
Of course most Contrib+ users won't believe me unless I make a wall of text to explain why it's true, but they prefer not reading it anyway so why the hell am I even posting.

Log said:
If you want to be noticed don't take artists from people who have contributor status, find new artists that haven't been discovered by anyone either by browsing crosslinks on artists' blogs or just skimming through a less-uploaded tag on pixiv like original or creation or one of the variations therein.

I precisely did all of this and that's why I'm saying it's too damn slow alone. Camping Touhou and Madoka on pixiv can be done at the same time and brought me something like 5x more uploads on average, even more if I sent them as poorly tagged as some others did.

Log said:
You're not requesting a promotion to janitor you're volunteering to do a shitty job with little to no reward.

You're saying this as if the rest was a whole lot funnier.

ghostrigger said:
any uploaded work from the basic member should start status:active. with this we eliminate the race to be first, slipping out of decent works, and lengthy appeals.

No, no, no, fucking no. I don't even have to speculate how this would go down as I moderate on Gelbooru too and it's an outrageous mess. This wouldn't even fix any of those problems, the latter two of which aren't actually problems. Also it wouldn't lessen our workload, it would increase it considerably.

Cyberia-Mix said:
I'm bringing up a new point about how users who deserve Contrib status have to unnecessarily waste a huge time to get it and why rushed uploads on pixiv are a big part of the problem.

IMHO the biggest part of the problem is simply the number of active uploaders. I don't know if Danbooru's user base has grown so much that pixiv and similar sites cannot produce enough quality art to keep up (personally I doubt it) but since the number of active uploaders has increased it's only natural that getting promoted takes more time than it used to.

People rush because they know someone else will upload a pic if they don't, and if you enforced something like a minimum number of tags per upload then they would rush to type the tags faster because they'd know someone else would upload the pic if they didn't. Some people would still beat others to the punch, and nothing would be much different.

Anyways, just my opinion. I still stand by my previous post as well.

I still have no damn idea how to get Contributor status, and I'm more active than most of you. >_>