Thought it would be better to have a separate thread for this... I brought up this issue in http://danbooru.donmai.us/forum/show/76141 , which is more or less people barely tagging anything when uploading(usually just a few character/copyright tags and one or two general tags) even when the image has much more to tag, just to get that "uploader status".
I've seen quite a few people doing this (Every day I may add..), and honestly, it's extremely demotivating when you spend a few seconds more actually tagging most of the stuff in the image (Which doesn't take too long with DanbooruUp), just to get see that it's already been uploaded several seconds earlier by someone who only tagged copyright/characters. This only seems to happen at peak times on Pixiv (This also seems to be the peak uploading time on Danbooru, considering for the few hours before that, there is little uploading going on). If this was people that haven't been here long, so maybe they don't know/haven't memorized the basic tags yet, fair enough..but this is builders/contributors doing this. There doesn't seem to be any neutral/negative records being given out regarding this either, so I'm assuming it's more or less an unwritten rule that it's ok.
From what I could find, at the moment it seems to be: "As long as it's not uploaded with no tags/tagged eventually, it's ok".
Which then brings up the point of, if this is ok, where is the point in having multiple uploaders? Could just have a single uploader/pixivbot and just have everyone else tag the images (Which already seems to happen with these images, due to tags being added if image already exists). Either that or remove the uploader status entirely to stop people doing this.
So question is: Should negative records be given out when this happens often(and I mean daily)? or is it simply ok to just tag the bare minimum to get that "uploader status" (Which seems to be what it currently is...)? And if negative records should be given out, would it be worth having a system in place to stop people doing this?
my personal opinion on this is go for the records and utilize it since you are capable of issuing one. if the user is a veteran/experienced user, spends a long time enough here, and yet chronically tags at bare minimum, then maybe that's worth a negative. earning a high rank such as a contributor status also means the community expects him to maintain and help danbooru more organized.
we usually (?) give a grace period (don't know for how long really officially), that when a post is uploaded with bare minimum, the uploader is expected to return and tag more later on, hopefully within the day. someone actually got a neutral record after returning to his uploads and tagging diligently for 3 minutes (the longest) only.
a negative (because of poor tagging) is usually preceded by several neutral (warnings) records often with considerable time differences in between.
however, even if some users earn a negative, some are just hard to convince/reform. just check the records section and you'll be surprised of repeat offenders.
ghostrigger said: my personal opinion on this is go for the records and utilize it since you are capable of issuing one. if the user is a veteran/experienced user, spends a long time enough here, and yet chronically tags at bare minimum, then maybe that's worth a negative. earning a high rank such as a contributor status also means the community expects him to maintain and help danbooru more organized.
I wouldn't say the people in question are doing poor tagging, as they do tend to tag right after they upload with minimal tags. It's more of a problem with lazy tagging, tagging as few things as possible just so they can upload it before someone else (Considering there is at least a few people watching pixiv at peak times).
we usually (?) give a grace period (don't know for how long really officially), that when a post is uploaded with bare minimum, the uploader is expected to return and tag more later on, hopefully within the day. someone actually got a neutral record after returning to his uploads and tagging diligently for 3 minutes (the longest) only.
This seems like it would be fine normally, but going by this logic..it would be insanely easy to just mass-upload images as they are uploaded to pixiv, with the excuse of properly tagging them later on (During which, they will most likely be tagged by someone else).
someone actually got a neutral record after returning to his uploads and tagging diligently for 3 minutes (the longest) only.
That is fairly surprising since I was under the impression you could upload a "set" or a few images in a row with minimal tags then go back in short order.
Basically as long as it does not end up at the Mr.GT level of lazy tagging it is "fine".
Two separate issues are being tied together here. One is minimal tagging and the other is "first" nonsense. Last we had this discussion we came to the conclusion minimal tagging is not punishable. Artist, Source, Character Name, Copyright are perfectly acceptable. Members can only search two tags at once and the tags listed previously are the most helpful to those who need to find a picture with as few tags as allowable.
The second issue is "First". This isn't youtube or a shoddy forum. If you see a user rushing in multiple posts in a row for "first" then handle that as you see fit. That is not a mentality that should be condoned here.
Action_Kamen said: If you see a user rushing in multiple posts in a row for "first" then handle that as you see fit. That is not a mentality that should be condoned here.
From DakuTree's OP, it seems as if he/she's asking for a second opinion regarding the whole "first" mentality
I certainly find it more than a bit off-putting when something like that happens but as mentioned, it's not 'illegal' per se
Hillside_Moose said: Being the first person to post the newest Pixiv art is serious business.
^
Pyrolight said:
Basically as long as it does not end up at the Mr.GT level of lazy tagging it is "fine".
For DakuTree's convenience and possibly a few others who joined Danbooru afterwards, Mr_GT used to upload mass images with only one to two tags during the Pixiv rush and would rarely go back to add new tags.
Regarding "first," it's a dick move. I've done it before, but I frankly don't care anymore.
DakuTree said: I wouldn't say the people in question are doing poor tagging, as they do tend to tag right after they upload with minimal tags. It's more of a problem with lazy tagging, tagging as few things as possible just so they can upload it before someone else
The bold part is the only important thing in my opinion. Sure the "first" mentality is kinda lame, as is getting upset about it to any degree, but, in this situation, it's not actually doing any harm. Arguably it does good, as it can force people to dig up new shit in obscure places to get they're names next to posts.
I'd be lying if I said that I don't care if I get to a pic first. But I also have to keep reminding myself that it's just Danbooru.I'm only uploading because it's interesting and it's fun to dig up what I can find.
I mean I get dejected if I can't get to a pic first but I move on and dig deeper. That's good fun. Plus I'm never awake around the Pixiv rush.
It can get a bit irksome when every morning post follows this pattern, especially when some images have 20 or more applicable tags, but my policy is to just live and let live. It's not something you can really moderate subtly. For example, the pestilence in YouTube with people going "first" or copy-pastaing a quote hoping for thumbs up. Though this may not be YouTube, the mindset is prevalent and it's not something a few neutral or negative records will change.
Like ShadowbladeEdge said, what it has done is that it has had me look in obscure places for nice art.
Uploaders like PPV10 are inexcusable, however. Two neutral and one negative records later, and his reaction is to move from just tagging "tagme" to simply tagging the copyright, and maybe a character.
Last we had this discussion we came to the conclusion minimal tagging is not punishable. Artist, Source, Character Name, Copyright are perfectly acceptable. Members can only search two tags at once and the tags listed previously are the most helpful to those who need to find a picture with as few tags as allowable.
Though it hurts, I have to agree with this. Unlike Mr.GT's case, the uploaders themselves tag their posts after uploading. Being "first" doesn't bother me much, but being lazy is a no-no.
saizo0070 said: I'd be lying if I said that I don't care if I get to a pic first. But I also have to keep reminding myself that it's just Danbooru.I'm only uploading because it's interesting and it's fun to dig up what I can find.
I mean I get dejected if I can't get to a pic first but I move on and dig deeper. That's good fun. Plus I'm never awake around the Pixiv rush.
I'm more or less the same, as this has made me start looking through random artists for stuff that hasn't been uploaded (Aswell as made me create the Pixiv Top Images Script to help with finding good images that have yet to be uploaded)
Action_Kamen said: Last we had this discussion we came to the conclusion minimal tagging is not punishable. Artist, Source, Character Name, Copyright are perfectly acceptable.
This seems like a rather bad idea considering it would most likely make other people do exactly the same just to have a chance of getting "first". Going by the Tag Checklist , Builders/Contributors should be "at least" tagging up to Level 1" when uploading (Hell, people that have been here long enough should be tagging at least to Level 3), anything less is obviously just being lazy to get "first". As long as this "Pixiv Rush" exists, it would be better if played fair, rather than people taking a lazy shortcut just to get "first".
Regarding the whole "first" mentality being rather bad, I do agree but, I honestly don't think there would be as many uploaders if it wasn't there. Nor would there as many images from places that are a bit more hard to find (Twitter/Homepages/ArtBooks etc etc.).
DakuTree said: This seems like a rather bad idea considering it would most likely make other people do exactly the same just to have a chance of getting "first".
Regarding the whole "first" mentality being rather bad, I do agree but, I honestly don't think there would be as many uploaders if it wasn't there. Nor would there as many images from places that are a bit more hard to find (Twitter/Homepages/ArtBooks etc etc.).
You're still upset with 'few tags when uploading' thing?
There are many avid uploaders in Danbooru and not all of them will read this. Plus, as per jxh2154 (forum #64556), setting something like coded regulations is pretty hard.
dean_exia said: You're still upset with 'few tags when uploading' thing?
I honestly couldn't care less if this only happened once or twice, but this happens repeatedly every day, which is why I keep complaining about it.
Plus, as per jxh2154 (forum #64556), setting something like coded regulations is pretty hard.
I'm not 100% how ruby works but if it's anything like perl/PHP, it wouldn't be that hard. We already have a way to lookup total general/copyright/artist tags. Fairly sure implementing something to actually check the total tag count on upload wouldn't be that hard to do.
Anyway, this is a very hard thing to regulate. Any hard-coded rules will run into situations where they just don't work or make sense.
This could be easily solved with a white/blacklist (Example: If tag list contains chibi or scenery, then don't check tag count). Suggestions for more filters could work like what we already have for the alias/implication threads.
Let's face it, it's quite the conundrum what you're discussing. On one hand, you argue it's not important who uploads what. On the other hand, you want to make it so that others can attach their names to an upload instead. Both of them are still based on the idea that it's important a particular user uploads something.
Furthermore, what suggestions you're making are absurd. There are too many potential problems, too many exceptions to maintain. They do nothing to improve the website, create unnecessary work for others, no other website would create such unusual restrictions to upload artwork, and you risk alienating users who are attracted to this website because of its ease of use.
Let's say we do implement your ideal restrictions. What are the benefits? A few other uploaders get to upload, that's it. Danbooru runs perfectly well already, things get tagged and pooled and such.
I get your frustrations, I'd like to take my time tagging too. It's not really gonna work, though.
Mysterio006 said: Furthermore, what suggestions you're making are absurd. There are too many potential problems, too many exceptions to maintain. They do nothing to improve the website, create unnecessary work for others, no other website would create such unusual restrictions to upload artwork, and you risk alienating users who are attracted to this website because of its ease of use.
I never mentioned anything about restricting the uploading of artwork. It could simply be a notification pointing people to howto:tag, if people continue to do this it could be something along the lines of an automatic neutral record or something similar. (This wouldn't exactly solve the problem though)
As for the improvement, it would hopefully make people start tagging better. I mean, gentags:<3 -scenery -no_humans -monochrome -text -close-up returns 2142 pages. Fair enough if the user isn't builder+, maybe they aren't too sure on tags, but there is a fair amount of builder+ images there that lack even hair/eye colors. This isn't something you exactly need to go and research just to find the tag.
Honestly I only suggested this because the current system of "uploading with minimal tags" is acceptable. There shouldn't be any reason to do this, even if you are mass-uploading a set of images, since they would have to be tagged eventually anyway. This could be extremely easily be abused (Which it currently is), and all this does is cause people to do the same.
