I vaguely remember there being a topic on this subject, but I can't find it at the moment. I'm wondering what we should do about characters who transform.
Transforming in anime is a pretty common trope, specifically what I'm talking about here is stuff like futari wa pretty cure, where the character goes from "real name" to "magical anime girl name". For example, kurumi erika becomes cure marine.
However, should an image of cure marine be tagged with kurumi erika or not? I think there are 2 viable options:
1) "untransformed": real name, "transformed": magical name 2) "untransformed": real name, "transformed": magical name, real name
I've seen both used, so we probably should decide on a policy (and even a third, where even the transformed character is still tagged with just the real name. I think this is defnitely wrong, though.)
In many cases, the alternate persona is still the regular character, just in a different guise, and thus would warrant the regular character tag (so I go with "2)").
Using that sort of logick, should the transformation have a *_(cosplay) tag when worn by other characters, or should the transformation name paired with cosplay be enough?
I disagree with the cosplay thing, that just seems weird for it being the original instance of the character. Plus it would become impossible to distinguish in search the original transform character from cosplays of that character.
However, I agree that the transformation is generally still the "real" character, in the same sense that Peter Parker is Spiderman. I was thinking if that is our policy, maybe an implication is a good idea.
And from a search perspective this is useful as well, since it makes it really easy to determine who is who, even after they've transformed. Helps with tagging.
Wait... An implication goes both ways, doesn't it? Forget I said anything! :D Just a mass edit will do the trick, then.
I don't consider it "real" versus fake, I consider it more transformed name versus non-transformed name. For some characters their "real" name is their transformed name, while it is non-transformed name that may be fake. There also characters who have more than one transformation.
I think the Sailor_Moon tag is currently one of the better examples of the way tagging should be done in regards to transformations. Sailor_Moon Tsukino_Ssagi will bring you all cases that Sailor Moon is Tsukino_Usagi, Tsukino_Usagi -Sailor_Moon will bring you the cases where she is not Sailor Moon, and Sailor_Moon -Tsukino_Usagi will bring you up images where Sailor Moon is being cosplayed or simply just is another character not Tsukino Usagi.
スラッシュ said: 1) "untransformed": real name, "transformed": magical name 2) "untransformed": real name, "transformed": magical name, real name
This topic seems to come up often, so I guess that means we haven't really formalized it.
The benefit of 1) is that you're less likely to spoil, and it avoids giving blanket precedence to either the transformed or untransformed name, because one might not work in every situation.
The benefit of 2) is that you have one tag to find all versions of the character, transformed or not.
I'm not sure making a strict rule that follows one or the other across every series is necessarily the best idea.
I'd also sort of like to avoid getting into implications for every single transforming character.
I think I like 2, because in most cases even when the outward appearance changes, the underlying character is visually identical (disregarding costume), so there is little reason they shouldn't be linked by a tag. Where spoilers are a concern, the spoiler tag should be used so that they can be blacklisted.
I think we've discussed that before, blacklisting spoilers is kinda useless because there's more than one show in existence, but only one spoilers tag.
Nobody mentioned that when I brought the same thing up in forum #38308. I don't see how it makes sense to break semantics simply to protect people from spoilers.
If in a random series it was somehow considered a spoiler that a character became an amputee, would we restrict people from using the tag in that case?
What about using "breasts" on "okuzaki_akira", since her gender is a secret for much of Mai Hime?
Likewise, I don't see how having the same person in a different costume (even if it's a secret identity important to the plot) makes a difference so far as the semantics of the tag is concerned.
If it's vitally important to protect viewers from potential spoilers, and the tag isn't sufficient, maybe there should be a special spoiler flag that would obscure the thumbnail for people who indicate they want such treatment in their profile settings (think like the way flashes are thumbnailed). This would work much like the black redaction style used with textual spoilers.
As for denying the use of the tag iteself though, I don't think it makes sense to break tag semantics to defend users' naivete.
葉月 said: I think we've discussed that before, blacklisting spoilers is kinda useless because there's more than one show in existence, but only one spoilers tag.
I don't see how it's useless at all. Blacklisting spoilers show_name works if you don't want to be spoiled for a certain show, and blacklisting spoilers some_character works if you don't want the fate of a certain character spoiled.
Shinjidude said: I think I like 2, because in most cases even when the outward appearance changes, the underlying character is visually identical (disregarding costume), so there is little reason they shouldn't be linked by a tag. Where spoilers are a concern, the spoiler tag should be used so that they can be blacklisted.
It's not uncommon at all for us to tag alter egos separately for spoiler reasons. The only difference is that in magical girl situations it's usually not a concern.
And the spoiler tag tends to be pretty worthless. It's not used very consistently and as often as note I've seen it on images that I wouldn't have otherwise known were spoilers until I saw that tag.
jjj14 said: I don't see how it's useless at all. Blacklisting spoilers show_name works if you don't want to be spoiled for a certain show, and blacklisting spoilers some_character works if you don't want the fate of a certain character spoiled.
That's a classical opt-out scheme, which is exactly like unsubscribing from spam and is the wrong approach for the same reasons. There are too many shows seriously to consider blacklisting even the major ones.
jxh2154 said: And the spoiler tag tends to be pretty worthless. It's not used very consistently and as often as note I've seen it on images that I wouldn't have otherwise known were spoilers until I saw that tag.
And that. I've been spoiled several times only because I saw the tags. The only reasonable stance is to avoid tagging things that could consitute spoilers as much as possible. If the fact that X is Y can be kept secret in the show, there's absolutely no reason why we'd need to tag pictures of X with Y unless the picture refers to the very fact that "X is Y". It's not even in any way visual and as such is about as wrong as implicating remilia scarlet → vampire. It doesn't add any information about the image, and it lowers the overall quality of the DB.
葉月 said: ...We generally don't link alternative forms with the base name unless they're obviously and visibly the same person, like say kaleido_ruby...
This is all I'm arguing for, if you can't tell from the image that the alter-ego and base character are the same person, it doesn't warrant the base character's tag. If you obviously can, I don't see any sensible explanation for why the base character's tag wouldn't apply.
I'm sensitive to spoiler issues, and where possible we should protect people from them, but to me accurate and thorough tagging trumps that.
Also, I'm against implications for these, they should be treated on a case by case basis like character → attribute and character → copyright pairs are.
Also I'm curious as to your stance on other sorts of tags like I mentioned above? Are character names a special case, or can no spoilerish tags be used even when visually relevant.
When visually relevant, it overrides the spoilers issue, because you can't accurately tag an image otherwise and we can't avoid that short of never uploading any images to be safe. Also when it's *obviously* the same person, it's not an issue either, because it hardly constitutes a spoiler. This discussion is only relevant when it's a fact that was revealed later in the show. "Revealed" being the keyword, because it implies having been kept secret earlier. Things like, for example, okazaki_nagisa (Clannad spoilers), which we do not use as a tag and have aliased to the base character additionally to pacify it. In this case, the character looks more or less the same, but the name you choose to tag with makes all the difference.
Ok, so I agree with everything you are saying then, so long as the situation where an alter-ego is visually distinct enough to warrant its own tag (say a costume or hairstyle), but visually identical enough to make obvious the base character and alter-ego are the same person, can be tagged with both tags, even in the case of spoilers (kept secret for some time). That seems to be the same as your "visually relevant" case.
Things that are not visual (such as simple name changes) or don't visually match the base character (such as costumes that fully obscure identity) obviously don't warrant tagging, especially if they constitute spoilers.
Shinjidude said: This is all I'm arguing for, if you can't tell from the image that the alter-ego and base character are the same person, it doesn't warrant the base character's tag. If you obviously can, I don't see any sensible explanation for why the base character's tag wouldn't apply.
I don't have a problem with this, it's basically what I proposed before, or thought I did anyway. The only downside is that it's not a very easily conveyed rule so it's unlikely everyone will know not to tag transformation x in series y, but that a in b is okay - but I'm willing to live with that. That's what tag gardeners are for.
Also, I'm against implications for these, they should be treated on a case by case basis like character → attribute and character → copyright pairs are.
Agreed.
Also I'm curious as to your stance on other sorts of tags like I mentioned above? Are character names a special case, or can no spoilerish tags be used even when visually relevant.
If it's visual, it's visual, not much we can do about that.
I do have to say I really hate the trap tag, though. It's too entrenched to get rid of but it serves absolutely no purpose but to spoil.
jxh2154 said: I do have to say I really hate the trap tag, though. It's too entrenched to get rid of but it serves absolutely no purpose but to spoil.
Oh yes, that's one I hate too. 90% of the time it's anything but visual, and if there wasn't trap on the picture, you wouldn't be able to tell it's not a girl, thanks to the wonders of it being drawn. Personally I'd like to limit trap usage only to the pictures in which you can actually tell the real gender from the picture.
