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Donmai

Is this fair?

Posted under General

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Fred1515 said:
glasnost was referring to post #636586 that was used as an example, not post #640879 that is the pic in question.

Eleven's right on that part, it didn't go through the queue as it should.

Hmm, my bad again... I must need to work on my reading comprehension, or at least not skim so much. So I'll take my stance back one step further and say I think it would have deserved to be flagged for "bad art", and would support the deletion on those grounds.

At that point though it really does become my opinion only (and that of whoever deleted it), and underscores the fact that it should have undergone a proper review. I suppose someone could approve and then flag it so that that happens.

On the other hand, having an entire forum discussion debating its merit is actually even closer scrutiny than being properly flagged would be. If the image gets re-approved in the life span of this thread then it probably got its due process. If it doesn't, then it indicates that the deleter's opinion matched that of the consensus, regardless of the fact that they acted out of line.

Both images should be deleted, as far as I'm concerned.

Hand wringing over the exact reason an image was deleted is idiotic, it should be deleted and it was, end result is correct, if he's so upset about it I'll undelete it, and then delete it again with the right reason.

And I'm really tempted to delete post #636586 outright.

@sgcdonmai and shinjidude:

If the post is approved then sent to back to a mod queue for a collective review of it by everyone with access to the queue then I would'nt complain if its deleted.

I'm taking a lot of everything that's said here to consideration and I'll keep them in mind with future uploads. But I really do think this "try your luck" system (forum #38145) should be worked out to be more objective and standardized.

Fencedude said:
No kidding, I haven't even told him to sit down, shut up and GTFO yet.

And I haven't told you to eat cocks yet. That's not an insult that's to illustrate that anybody can be an ass on the internet. You're not special for acting this way and like Ive said again over and over, its not helping. You're barely on topic, you're derailing the thread by baiting a negative response from me and you've not added anything of value. Hell the closest thing to a conclusion to this that you've given me is "I'd delete it and I'm going to delete another one of your uploads to piss you off". Chill out. I didn't come here to offended anyone so you shouldn't come here to do the same.

@Eleven

I see, so your point wasn't so much to get the deleted image re-approved, but rather asking why the other examples were approved when yours wasn't. I probably derailed things myself then, because I was working under a different understanding of what you wanted.

As for your examples, I wouldn't have approved of any of them personally, and would be happy if others didn't upload or approve similar images. I actually flagged post #632889 since you brought it to my attention.

As for asanagi, he does have some good art, but I really dislike his huge breasted pics. To me, it makes the character look like they've had their middle third removed, and their torso spliced back together. I won't go on a mass flagging spree there though, because it's sort of dickish to mass flag something someone likely supports (though maybe in this case it's mostly contributors and not mod staff).

I actually did do that once with hugely disproportionate futanari shortly after they were made to be ToS violations and ended up catching some flack for it. If someone did flag all those example pics though, I wouldn't be upset, and certainly wouldn't reapprove them.

As for the system as a whole, I'm sure if you had a good way to make it more fair and still maintain at least the same degree of quality assurance (which is necessarily subjective), we'd be open to hearing it.

Honestly though, the moderation system here is actually more fair now than it has ever been. Initially the mod staff had no mechanism except to straight-out delete posts they disagreed with.

From there we introduced the mod queue and the idea that to be deleted, everyone on the mod staff had to passively disagree with a post before it would be discarded.

After that we implanted the flagging system that allows anyone (even outside the mod staff) to throw a pic they disagree with back into the queue for reconsideration. And on the other side of that system, we have the deletion appeal thread for those that disagree with the deletions to let things get overturned.

@Fencedude

Calm down. I agree with almost everything you've said in this thread, but you are taking things to the extreme. Gauging from a sample of Eleven's posts, his eye for quality is actually better than a lot of contributors.

Back in the day, I was rightly threatened with being demoted from contributor one time when I unloaded a crapton of mediocre-to-poor Ghibli hentai (which I still regret doing, though I'll still maintain that a few of them were worthwhile).

Anyway I was able to talk my way out of it somehow (in fact looking back at it, you defended me way back then). I'd like to think my quality threshold has improved a lot since that incident.

A lot of things have changed since back then, both as far as we and the site go (reading some of my posts from that thread, it's almost comical how different my opinions are today), but I still think it's it's fair to give someone a second chance.

So Eleven has posted a few bad pics, he should be able to take this as an opportunity re-tune his opinion of what is acceptable to post in the future. He doesn't deserve demotion.

EDIT: Wow, I'm not really sure exactly why I brought it up because I really don't like discussing that incident, but if you read that whole thread, It's almost a bizarro mirror-world replica of this one, where almost all the prevailing opinions have changed (Hazuki is pretty consistent though).

Updated

This thread is a mess that I don't even really want to read, but I have to ask...

Why the hell are these guidelines in the Terms of Service, anyway? Usually the ToS of a website is meant to regulate the behavior of its users, a category into which what images they upload does not in my opinion fall. "We, Danbooru, agree to allow you to visit our site and browse the images contained therein only upon the condition that if and when you upload any picture it satisfies the following criteria." That's a really roundabout way of introducing uploading guidelines. Why not just call them "uploading rules", or something?

0xCCBA696 said:
This thread is a mess that I don't even really want to read,

Just skip Shinji's posts. :V

but I have to ask...
Why the hell are these guidelines in the Terms of Service, anyway? Usually the ToS of a website is meant to regulate the behavior of its users, a category into which what images they upload does not in my opinion fall.

How exactly do you explain image uploads not falling under "user behavior"? I think it's rather important that such information be included.

Eleven, as you asked for people's opinion's on the matter, I'll give you my two cents. You are correct in that a de facto double standard exists, but it is not one that is encouraged by most veterans or mods/admins. As near as I can tell, two main things contribute to it. The first: People makes mistakes. The second: People who like banned subject matter or as specific image that has banned subject matter occasionally let their taste override the ToS. Similarly, on occasion mistakes or over zealousness contribute to flawed "correction." This isn't something more objective standards can fix. In fact, this is something that exists in spite of objective standards to curb it. It's a factor of people being human, and there will never be a fool-proof way around that.

Also, I don't think you can create a system that can objectively identify high-quality art with a low margin of error. Judgement of a piece of art will always have a great subjective function to it. Are there objective measures you can use? Yes, and by and large they inform our subjective judgments. They cannot replace them. Part of what makes a good art critic, for example, is having what is often called a good eye, yet what precisely a good eye is is virtually impossible to objectively quantify. Certainly it has in part to do with being able to judge proportion and composition, but it goes much further as well.

In the end, I think what we have in theory works well. This is a set of rules that allows for subjective judgments, but with a request/requirement that certain objective guidelines be met in reaching them. In practice, it doesn't always work smoothly for a handful of reasons. This doesn't mean we don't have enough objectivity, though. It might, however, mean we need better enforcement. (And perhaps more caution regarding who is put in a position that can "sneak things through.")

Shinjidude, when I went back to read that old topic (which was before my time) I laughed, incredulous, at the stances you took. I could hardly believe that I was reading you advocate for...well...what you were advocating. How times do change. Still, you might be happy to know I saw the green shoots of the Shinjidude I am familiar with today poking through the dry, rocky soil. :P

0xCCBA696, Even on social networking sites, restrictions on images you may upload are in the ToS. Seeing as the uploading and archiving/sharing of images is the raison d'être of this site, I think it reasonable guidelines regarding which images may be uploaded are laid out in the ToS. There is a separate page dedicated to uploading images, though. (howto:upload)

Appealing to precedent and tradition is a valid point.

Not here. I don't particularly mind your asking for clarification, but don't think this'll help your point on Danbooru. We change the rules regularly, and old pictures are not always updated to match these new rules. Therefore, if anything, precedent and tradition are the opposite of a valid point.

On the topic of the image, the only thing that is wrong with that deletion is the reason. I could be mistaken, but it's possible that the flagging reason is put as the deletion reason if the image is not approved after 3 days in the moderation queue. If that is the case, then there is no issue here.

Also, there is (or if there isn't, certainly should be) a rule against uploading images that have been deleted before.

スラッシュ said: I could be mistaken, but it's possible that the flagging reason is put as the deletion reason if the image is not approved after 3 days in the moderation queue. If that is the case, then there is no issue here.

As far as I know, the deletion reason gets changed to "Unapproved in three days after returning to moderation queue" if a post is flagged and not re-approved within the three-day timeframe. Then, the flag reason gets decoupled from the post (though, that data is still kept somewhere in the database).

And also, if you read the first page, someone mentioned that it got flagged for "bad art" (or something along those lines), not a ToS violation.

But all of that aside, is there really anything else to discuss here? This thread is a little messy.

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