Posted under General
kasane_teto is an UTAU character that also has a synthesizer v version, kasane_teto_(sv)
These versions have distinct visual designs, and the latter implies the former.
However, 100% of kasane_teto_(sv) images are tagged UTAU, making it difficult to search for images that include specifically the UTAU version without filtering out SynthV. Considering there's no direct implication, should this tagging be kept or altered in some way?
IMO the UTAU tag should be removed from posts that don't feature anything related to the UTAU voice engine--so if only Synthesizer V Teto is in there, there's no reason for the UTAU tag to be there.
I think taggers take a bit of a maximalist approach to copyright tagging for some characters, wherein it can't just be where a character's current appearance originates, they also have to tag the original piece of media they came from along with a couple of other ones they've also appeared in, just to be on the safe side. this is about the mess that is fate copytags I, personally, think this is extremely bad practice. If someone's looking for art related to a certain copyright Y, they won't be happy to see character X in a copyright Z setting show up in results just because character X also appeared in copyright Y at some point. If someone wants to see posts with character X in any context, they'll just search for character X. If they want to find character X in certain contexts, they'll combine it with copyright tags, meaning that overpolluting the copytags just makes it harder to narrow down search results for certain costumes/appearances/designs, which is exactly what your final paragraph is pointing out.
My two cents since I'm one of the users who adds UTAU to every Kasane_Teto. In fact, I specifically have a saved search to garden such vocal synth posts.
I actually tend to search copyright tags by default rather than character tags so it bothers me when any instance of a character doesn't have the "base" tag that I search with.
Removing the UTAU tag doesn't feel like the right thing to do here since there are Teto posts that aren't specifically related to the UTAU engine; i.e. original designs, events, holidays, etc (I would add song designs as well, but I guess that's debatable), but because UTAU is that base tag, these posts are also tagged UTAU. The logic here would be "tag Teto with UTAU by default, except in case of SynthV" which feels inconsistent.
I think normally this wouldn't be too big of a problem because upgraded designs usually represent a minority of posts among vocal synths, and even then they're usually somewhat close to the base design. But specifically in the case of Kasane Teto, her upgraded design Kasane Teto (SV) is directly responsible for her current surge of popularity and makes up a majority of her posts now. There are 9.4k of Teto posts, 8k of which are after SV was released 2 years ago compared to the 17 years of Teto's existence, and 3k of which are tagged with Kasane Teto (SV).
An alternative solution could be to create a Kasane Teto (UTAU) tag. I would've considered this unnecessary padding (and quite frankly rubs me the wrong way since the UTAU design should be the default without needing it's own tag, but perhaps that's just fear of change) but considering the stats above and just looking at the most recent 200 posts, 90 of those are SV compared to 51 UTAU. If the point is to search specifically for the UTAU design, this would be the most efficient solution.
I imagine, had topic #23946 and topic #25830 gone thrugh, there wouldn't have been a need for tagging UTAU on all of Teto's posts, given that there'd still be one tag where she is in her entirety represented, but since we don't, having a tag for her UTAU design seems like the only reasonable option. And it's not like we haven't done UTAU tagging separation, given that's exactly what happened with Zundamon in topic #30778.
Looking at the Howto page on Copyright, it does say "the anime/game/comic/movie/etc from which a character originates", so that does agree with my own tagging method.
It's arguably an outdated notion for certain groups of copyrights like vocal synths that blur the line between the "copyright" that a character belongs to. Just in recent news, Kotonoha Akane and Aoi, who have traditionally been VOICEROIDs, are planned to have VOCALOID voicebanks coming out soon. This also overlaps with the conversation on tagging songs with the _(vocaloid) or related qualifier. I personally don't mind the way things are done now, but I get the problem with these methods and I feel like the only good long-term solution is an overhaul of how "copyright" tags work rather than the current one-to-one system with character tags, like some kind of tiered or grouped system where a copytag is under an umbrella tag without necessarily having that umbrella tag, or perhaps that umbrella tag would be in a whole new category like "meta copyright".
luntoer said:
Looking at the Howto page on Copyright, it does say "the anime/game/comic/movie/etc from which a character originates", so that does agree with my own tagging method.
Again, I feel like there's a discussion to be had on what "originates" means within the context of alt costumes and redesigns. Going by the strict definition of "first appearance of the character", something like post #8995280 should be tagged with Heaven's Feel because that's where Saber Alter first appeared. Even though that's clearly a depiction of her from Fate/Grand Order because that's where the costume originates.
We have a gentag for virtual youtuber, I think a similar gentag for vocal synthesizer mascot wouldn't hurt (as was discussed in the topics Damian linked).
Personally I would prefer the utau copytags removed from her synthv version. I often forget that it's not a misstag to have both even though it means you have to negate her synthv design from the search to get her original one, which doesn't feel as intuitive as just using the utau tag.
I think having a kasane teto (utau) tag would also be an effective solution and it does have precedent.
luntoer said:
Looking at the Howto page on Copyright, it does say "the anime/game/comic/movie/etc from which a character originates", so that does agree with my own tagging method.
I think there were technically a few days where Teto "existed" before her utau voicebank was actually released so if you were really pedantic you could argue that her origin copytag should be 2channel or vipperloid.
Don't actually do this.
Schizoruko said:
We actually already have a vipperloid tag (vippaloid) but I'm not too sure what purpose it serves.
It's a group tag essentially, like Primarch for Warhammer, or HoloPromise. And group tags are sorta controversial, which is why, such as in HoloPromise's example, people try to limit their use for actual group shots and as opposed to it being tagged whenever a member is present in the art. But per the Primarch example, that isn't universal.
Well, kasane teto (voicepeak) exists now which proves the need for a way to search for just her original design even more, even though I don't think it'll be as popular as SV.
tamuraakemi said:
Is there any precedent for how this alternate-version-dominated tagging issue is usually handled?
The closest is probably zundamon getting a zundamon (utau) tag, though it is a much smaller tag then a utau teto tag would be.
wispydreamer said:
Well, kasane teto (voicepeak) exists now which proves the need for a way to search for just her original design even more, even though I don't think it'll be as popular as SV.
why is this a gentag lmao
wispydreamer said:
Well, kasane teto (voicepeak) exists now which proves the need for a way to search for just her original design even more, even though I don't think it'll be as popular as SV.
and this one's so far getting 3 copytags with ah-software as well . superb
BUR #39606 is pending approval.
mass update favgroup:42276 -> kasane_teto_(utau)
create implication kasane_teto_(utau) -> kasane_teto
There's currently nearly the same amount of UTAU Teto posts (165 pg) as SV Teto (153 pg), though at the current trend, SV will likely overtake UTAU soon. The original design may now warrant its own tag to make it easier to find.
Also happy birthday, Kasane Teto.
