Donmai

Fixing topless (for real this time)

Posted under Tags

BUR #36523 is pending approval.

mass update topless -clothed_animal -clothed_pokemon -no_humans -1other -multiple_others -> topless_female
create implication topless_female -> topless
create implication topless_male -> topless

This was put through twice already (see forum #196103 and forum #211160), and the issues present then are still present now. We still get a few dozen mistags every month of topless men being mistagged as topless. In fact, there's a nonzero amount of users who already use both tags anyway.

With a tag name this generic, routine and continued misuse, and a very easy solution, I have no idea why the previous BURs weren't approved. Please don't let this rot by the wayside for a third time.

I notice from the first discussion thread linked, evazion suggests that topless and shirtless should be separate because somebody searching for topless wouldn't want to see men. However, there are plenty of other tags where this is already the case. Given the site demographics, I'd wager most people searching for "masturbation" probably intend to find women rather than men with that search. Yet we still have an umbrella tag, masturbation, plus multiple gender-specific tags to narrow it down.

The one point mentioned to warrant making a distinction between "topless" and "masturbation" in terms of gender defaultism was that google searches return topless women by default, but I think this is pretty flimsy reasoning. While there may be a gendered bias in colloquial usage, in more precise usage (eg. most dictionaries) it is not identified as a gender-specific term, clearly many taggers are not viewing it as a gender-specific term by default, and tagging in general leans toward precision rather than colloquialism.

The umbrella solution seems abundantly common sense to me. A well-tagged image will often have 30+ general tags on it. Perhaps you can expect dedicated builders who have been at it for 20 years to memorize the particular rules of every single tag, but no casual contributor is going to be checking 30 wiki pages to make sure they're following every single rule to a tee, which means that tag names need to speak for themselves to a large degree. All the more so when the tagging rules are constantly changing on a patchwork basis with no larger unifying philosophy (ie. topless being for women only but masturbation being gender-agnostic is contradictory in a way that bucks any intuitive understanding of tagging rules). It seems there's been a tendency to blame taggers for not reading the wiki, but I think any "mistagging" as a result of the current situation is bluntly a policy failure, not a contributor failure.

Given that topless male and topless female inherently are two completely separate ratings, with topless male being sfw and topless female being nsfw, it kind of doesn't make sense to lump the two together.

I still want them separate. I would've upvoted if it was just the first line. If the problem is them being frequently misused, then why not only update the name over creating an umbrella tag? Your issues with the mistags are valid but I don't think the point of people searching topless not wanting to find topless male should be cast aside either.

BUR #36545 has been rejected.

mass update topless -clothed_animal -clothed_pokemon -no_humans -1other -multiple_others -> -topless topless_female

Alternative BUR keeping male and female presenting nipples topless tags separated per above replies. (Mass update lines may be a little flawed, mostly just making this to see how all the votes pan out.)

ETA: Removed lines updating topless_male topless false positives and deprecating topless

Updated

Ylimegirl said:

BUR #36545 has been rejected.

mass update topless -clothed_animal -clothed_pokemon -no_humans -1other -multiple_others -> -topless topless_female

Alternative BUR keeping male and female presenting nipples separated per above replies. (Mass update lines may be a little flawed, mostly just making this to see how all the votes pan out.)

This may sound pedantic, but this BUR doesn't actually address keeping the nipples separated. I think having a separate male nipples tag would be useful (previously discussed in topic #14178), but if we're explicitly designating specific tags as female, we'd probably have to rename nipples as female nipples, and I don't think that would get a lot of support.

Blank_User said:

This may sound pedantic, but this BUR doesn't actually address keeping the nipples separated. I think having a separate male nipples tag would be useful (previously discussed in topic #14178), but if we're explicitly designating specific tags as female, we'd probably have to rename nipples as female nipples, and I don't think that would get a lot of support.

i was tryna make a stupid tumblr porn ban joke but it seems i failed at that lol.

BUR #36592 is pending approval.

deprecate topless
mass update topless -clothed_animal -clothed_pokemon -no_humans -1other -multiple_others -> -topless topless_female
mass update topless ~1other ~multiple_others ~other_focus -1girl -multiple_girls -1boy -multiple_boys -> -topless topless_other

WRS said:

I still want them separate. I would've upvoted if it was just the first line. If the problem is them being frequently misused, then why not only update the name over creating an umbrella tag? Your issues with the mistags are valid but I don't think the point of people searching topless not wanting to find topless male should be cast aside either.

The idea was to make it so that you could still search for stuff like post #6351355, or topless clothed_animals, by removing topless_male and topless_female from your search. But upon further reflection, I've realised it's far more reliable to just have a topless_other tag as well, and that we probably don't need a tag for animals. Plus, having the parent tag would just fracture the gendered tags, as people would continue to only tag topless instead of the more specific subtags.

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