Donmai

Mortis doll implication

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CoreMack

If we're using this tag on images like post #8731467, then we'll have mortis_(bang_dream!) tagged on images where Mutsumi's Ave Mujica outfit is absent.

Currently, danbooru in essence uses mortis_(bang_dream!) etc. as skin tags for the Ave Mujica outfits. This is different from the nomenclature that most of the fanbase has adopted since episode 3, which is to use "Mortis" to refer to Mutsumi's split personality. Hence the "Casual Mortis" pool (pool #24582).

So either this should imply Wakaba Mutsumi, not Mortis, or we need to rethink how we are using these tags overall.

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silvia ash

CoreMack said:

If we're using this tag on images like post #8731467, then we'll have mortis_(bang_dream!) tagged on images where Mutsumi's Ave Mujica outfit is absent.

Currently, danbooru in essence uses mortis_(bang_dream!) etc. as skin tags for the Ave Mujica outfits. This is different from the nomenclature that most of the fanbase has adopted since episode 3, which is to use "Mortis" to refer to Mutsumi's split personality. Hence the "Casual Mortis" pool (pool #24582).

So either this should imply Wakaba Mutsumi, not Mortis, or we need to rethink how we are using these tags overall.

Well, the Mortis tag already implies Wakaba Mutsumi in turn, so I don't think this implication would really change that much since it'd end up tagging Mutsumi in any case. And there are some moments in episode 3 where Doll Mortis is seen outside of the Mortis stage outfit, so there is some justification for tagging those posts as well.

That being said, I do also think that treating Mortis as a separate character from Mutsumi and having the Mortis tag be primarily used as such, while perhaps creating a second tag for the stage outfit, something like mortis_costume_(bang_dream!) which could apply to images depicting either Mutsumi or Mortis without implying either of their tags, could help streamline the purpose of the tags and reduce confusion. Naturally this would also make the "Casual Mortis" pool redundant, so I guess that'd have to be nuked in that scenario. I'd be personally fine with either of these options.

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silvia ash

Looking again at post #8731467 specifically, it does actually seem like the intent is to depict Mutsumi as a doll and Mortis in the child post, although the artist commentary doesn't specify this. So, in that particular case, I guess it's probably safest to remove the Mortis doll tag from there while leaving it on the child post.

If we do go with the second solution I suggested (making Mortis and Mutsumi separate character tags), then there is probably naturally going to be at least a little bit of guesswork involved in which is which (like, the artist of post #8802098 doesn't specify but it seems safe to call that one given the reference to Mortis trying to "call" Mutsumi in episode 5's ending, while something like post #8795956 is a little more ambiguous), and we can't just go by her smiling anymore like the pool description suggests, since she's expressed other emotions in subsequent episodes. I suppose in the case that it's not certain in the image which it is, there's nothing about the context suggesting it's Mortis, and the artist doesn't specify, it's probably best to default to Mutsumi.

Although also, I guess we don't have to unimply Mutsumi from Mortis, since that might also be confusing for other reasons. I'm not sure what the right call here is, or if there's precedent in how we've tagged similar cases before.

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CoreMack

I think my preference would probably be for making separate mortis_(costume) and mortis_(persona) tags and have them both imply Mutsumi (open to suggestions on what to call the latter). The Casual Mortis pool is really something that should just be a tag.

Then the question is what to do with mortis_(doll). post #8732883 means we can't have the doll implying Mortis_(costume) and post #8724213 isn't Mortis_(persona). So the doll tag would still have to just imply Mutsumi, and then the other two tags would have to be added as necessary.

The downside of this would be that it's simply a complex mess of tags. I'm open to other suggestions but right now I think that doll, persona, and costume should each have a tag, all implying Mutsumi.

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silvia ash

CoreMack said:

BUR #36357 is pending approval.

create alias mortis_(bang_dream!) -> mortis_(costume)_(bang_dream!)
mass update pool:24582 -> mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!)
nuke pool:24582
create implication mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!) -> wakaba_mutsumi
create implication mortis_(doll)_(bang_dream!) -> wakaba_mutsumi

My proposal.

Manual gardening will be needed to fully populate mortis_(persona)_(bang dream!)

I'd change it to mortis_(doll) implying mortis_(persona), rather than Mutsumi, since that seems to be her primary appearance within their shared mental space, and instances of Mutsumi as a doll are comparatively rare. These changes all sound good to me otherwise.

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ANON TOKYO

Yeah okay, this is probably a problem that needs tackling.

silvia_ash said:

...

That being said, I do also think that treating Mortis as a separate character from Mutsumi and having the Mortis tag be primarily used as such, while perhaps creating a second tag for the stage outfit, something like mortis_costume_(bang_dream!) which could apply to images depicting either Mutsumi or Mortis without implying either of their tags, could help streamline the purpose of the tags and reduce confusion. Naturally this would also make the "Casual Mortis" pool redundant, so I guess that'd have to be nuked in that scenario. I'd be personally fine with either of these options.

I originally made pool #24582 after Episode 3 aired as a way to at least record instances of "Mortis but not the outfit", since it'd otherwise require later gardening. At the time it wasn't entirely clear (IMO) what the exact direction was, but combined with Episode 3 being part of the episodes that were pre-shown in cinemas, there was actually a lot of art based on such speculations. I think the split personality thing is sufficiently established by now though.

Originally the pseudonym tags were made specifically to be costume tags, but the anime kind of co-opted the name "Mortis" for the alternate persona as well. It kind of sucks for consistency, but something should be done differently for Mutsumi's case.

CoreMack said:

I think my preference would probably be for making separate mortis_(costume) and mortis_(persona) tags and have them both imply Mutsumi (open to suggestions on what to call the latter). The Casual Mortis pool is really something that should just be a tag.

Agreed, I think not implying either of those to Mutsumi would just be pedantry, and it'd make searching for al forms of Mutsumi difficult. I think you are right in that the both tags should imply Mutsumi in that case. The costume is simply a costume tag, and the persona tag is a "derived" character.

I don't know what a good way to go about this actual split is though. Right now, mortis_(bang_dream!) is basically "persona OR costume", while the pool is "persona AND NOT costume". We don't want to get rid of the ability to search for the costume, but I'd argue that in many, many instances of the costume, it's nearly impossible to actually determine if the persona applies. Like, post #8789953 seems pretty obvious based on the expression, and post #8794715 based on the dual persona. Meanwhile, in a case like post #8790037 it probably doesn't apply, but who knows really. The pool doesn't suffer from this since depictions of the person outside of the costume almost universally use some sort of facial expression, action or other reference to indicate it.

Honestly, I'm kind of leaning towards suggesting we "just" turn the pool into a tag, since (persona) and (costume) seems like it'd have quite a high maintenance cost, and be quite subjective to boot.

Then the question is what to do with mortis_(doll). post #8732883 means we can't have the doll implying Mortis_(costume) and post #8724213 isn't Mortis_(persona). So the doll tag would still have to just imply Mutsumi, and then the other two tags would have to be added as necessary.

I guess implying Mutsumi sounds like the the most "correct" approach, but like you said, it's far from ergonomic in terms of tagging.

I hate to be suggesting a 3-level implication, but implying both mortis_(doll)_(bang_dream!) and a new "casual mortis" tag (maybe simply mortis_(casual)_(bang_dream!), as much as that sounds like a vtuber costume) to mortis_(bang_dream!) would solve the following cases:

  • Tagging would still be easy as it doesn't require you to add 3 different tags when a Mortis doll in a Mortis costume is present
  • Searching would still be easy since all forms of "Mortis" fall under the main tag, and it can easily be excluded with just wakaba_mutsumi -mortis_(bang_dream!)
  • Searching for Mutsumi acting "out of character" (= as Mortis), like what the pool does now, is still trivial.

This doesn't solve being able to search by Mutsumi's alternate personality, but as I laid out above I just don't think this is possible to do in a good way.

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ANON TOKYO

BUR #36373 is pending approval.

mass update pool:24582 -> char:mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!)
create implication mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!) -> mortis_(bang_dream!)
create implication mortis_(doll)_(bang_dream!) -> mortis_(bang_dream!)

As above.

To avoid multiple qualifiers, it may be worthwhile to also consider aliasing the tags to casual_mortis_(bang_dream!) and mortis_doll_(bang_dream!), but that's a separate issue.

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silvia ash Red Terror kimonomiko ANON TOKYO CoreMack
silvia ash

ANON_TOKYO said:

Yeah okay, this is probably a problem that needs tackling.

I originally made pool #24582 after Episode 3 aired as a way to at least record instances of "Mortis but not the outfit", since it'd otherwise require later gardening. At the time it wasn't entirely clear (IMO) what the exact direction was, but combined with Episode 3 being part of the episodes that were pre-shown in cinemas, there was actually a lot of art based on such speculations. I think the split personality thing is sufficiently established by now though.

Originally the pseudonym tags were made specifically to be costume tags, but the anime kind of co-opted the name "Mortis" for the alternate persona as well. It kind of sucks for consistency, but something should be done differently for Mutsumi's case.

Agreed, I think not implying either of those to Mutsumi would just be pedantry, and it'd make searching for al forms of Mutsumi difficult. I think you are right in that the both tags should imply Mutsumi in that case. The costume is simply a costume tag, and the persona tag is a "derived" character.

I don't know what a good way to go about this actual split is though. Right now, mortis_(bang_dream!) is basically "persona OR costume", while the pool is "persona AND NOT costume". We don't want to get rid of the ability to search for the costume, but I'd argue that in many, many instances of the costume, it's nearly impossible to actually determine if the persona applies. Like, post #8789953 seems pretty obvious based on the expression, and post #8794715 based on the dual persona. Meanwhile, in a case like post #8790037 it probably doesn't apply, but who knows really. The pool doesn't suffer from this since depictions of the person outside of the costume almost universally use some sort of facial expression, action or other reference to indicate it.

Honestly, I'm kind of leaning towards suggesting we "just" turn the pool into a tag, since (persona) and (costume) seems like it'd have quite a high maintenance cost, and be quite subjective to boot.

I guess implying Mutsumi sounds like the the most "correct" approach, but like you said, it's far from ergonomic in terms of tagging.

I hate to be suggesting a 3-level implication, but implying both mortis_(doll)_(bang_dream!) and a new "casual mortis" tag (maybe simply mortis_(casual)_(bang_dream!), as much as that sounds like a vtuber costume) to mortis_(bang_dream!) would solve the following cases:

  • Tagging would still be easy as it doesn't require you to add 3 different tags when a Mortis doll in a Mortis costume is present
  • Searching would still be easy since all forms of "Mortis" fall under the main tag, and it can easily be excluded with just wakaba_mutsumi -mortis_(bang_dream!)
  • Searching for Mutsumi acting "out of character" (= as Mortis), like what the pool does now, is still trivial.

This doesn't solve being able to search by Mutsumi's alternate personality, but as I laid out above I just don't think this is possible to do in a good way.

I'm not sure I like the mortis_(casual) idea since that doesn't really solve the issue of tagging Mortis's persona inherently involving a little guesswork from context, and there's really no way of avoiding that, and also it's not really descriptive of what the tag means, since it's focusing on the clothes when the whole point is getting across that these are related but distinct characters. I do agree, however, that perhaps having a "costume" tag, independent of any implication, is maybe a bit much.

I think probably the best way of solving this is just, have Mutsumi's tag refer to any art using her design or any derivatives of it, have the main "Mortis" tag be an umbrella tag for either Mutsumi in costume OR Mortis fronting (as it is now), and have the (persona) tag imply Mortis. For simplicity, the (doll) tag can just imply the main Mortis tag rather than being tied to the (persona) tag, while the (persona) tag would only cover the instances in which Mutsumi's body is (or appears to be) being used by Mortis. I think this would about solve it, since then people could search for "mortis_(bang_dream!)" to get whatever instance of Mortis, and then if they're looking for the persona, "mortis_(persona)" exists to narrow it down.

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ANON TOKYO

silvia_ash said:

I'm not sure I like the mortis_(casual) idea since that doesn't really solve the issue of tagging Mortis's persona inherently involving a little guesswork from context, and there's really no way of avoiding that, and also it's not really descriptive of what the tag means, since it's focusing on the clothes when the whole point is getting across that these are related but distinct characters. I do agree, however, that perhaps having the costume tag be independent of any implication is maybe a bit much.

I think probably the best way of solving this is just, have Mutsumi's tag refer to any art using her design or any derivatives of it, have the main "Mortis" tag be an umbrella tag for either Mutsumi in costume OR Mortis fronting (as it is now), and have the (persona) tag imply Mortis. For simplicity, the (doll) tag can just imply the main Mortis tag rather than being tied to the (persona) tag, while the (persona) tag would only cover the instances in which Mutsumi's body is (or appears to be) being used by Mortis. I think this would about solve it, since then people could search for "mortis_(bang_dream!)" to get whatever instance of Mortis, and then if they're looking for the persona, "mortis_(persona)" exists to narrow it down.

The (casual) name isn't great, it was just derived from the pool name for now. That said, while I don't want perfection be the enemy of good enough, I feel like there's 2 issues with having a persona tag that applies. First is that there's already quite a few instances of ambiguity, and having the persona tag apply to in-costume too seems like it could lead to either over-usage or under-usage (probably the former) to the point where it's not very useful. Secondly, this way there isn't a good way to search for what the pool currently covers.

I think calling what the pool does mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!) is fine (better, even), and I would be willing to take the chances with the first point I mention (realistically, it's probably fine in the majority of cases), but doing so removes some granularity for what's quite an interesting concept, both visually and story-wise. Normally, a suggestion could be to keep the pool as a subset to the persona tag, but that feels like it's just kicking the can further down the road. At the same time, adding yet another layer or tag feels like overkill.

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silvia ash

ANON_TOKYO said:

The (casual) name isn't great, it was just derived from the pool name for now. That said, while I don't want perfection be the enemy of good enough, I feel like there's 2 issues with having a persona tag that applies. First is that there's already quite a few instances of ambiguity, and having the persona tag apply to in-costume too seems like it could lead to either over-usage or under-usage (probably the former) to the point where it's not very useful. Secondly, this way there isn't a good way to search for what the pool currently covers.

I think calling what the pool does mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!) is fine (better, even), and I would be willing to take the chances with the first point I mention (realistically, it's probably fine in the majority of cases), but doing so removes some granularity for what's quite an interesting concept, both visually and story-wise. Normally, a suggestion could be to keep the pool as a subset to the persona tag, but that feels like it's just kicking the can further down the road. At the same time, adding yet another layer or tag feels like overkill.

Yeah, I think no matter what there's going to be some difficulty in wrangling overuse of the persona tag, whether it's called "casual" or "persona". I don't think it's going to be that common though. It's probably best to just deal with that on a case-by-case basis.

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ANON TOKYO

silvia_ash said:

Yeah, I think no matter what there's going to be some difficulty in wrangling overuse of the persona tag, whether it's called "casual" or "persona". I don't think it's going to be that common though. It's probably best to just deal with that on a case-by-case basis.

For now, I've updated my BUR to create a persona tag but keep the pool intact. This way the persona tag can be expanded to encompass all instances of "crazy" Mutsu, while the pool can still be used for the further subset of her being out-of-costume.

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silvia ash

ANON_TOKYO said:

For now, I've updated my BUR to create a persona tag but keep the pool intact. This way the persona tag can be expanded to encompass all instances of "crazy" Mutsu, while the pool can still be used for the further subset of her being out-of-costume.

I think I'm on board with that idea, so, I guess my own BUR is now functionally redundant.

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CoreMack

ANON_TOKYO said:

BUR #36373 is pending approval.

mass update pool:24582 -> char:mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!)
create implication mortis_(persona)_(bang_dream!) -> mortis_(bang_dream!)
create implication mortis_(doll)_(bang_dream!) -> mortis_(bang_dream!)

As above.

To avoid multiple qualifiers, it may be worthwhile to also consider aliasing the tags to casual_mortis_(bang_dream!) and mortis_doll_(bang_dream!), but that's a separate issue.

The problem, in my view, with this is that you've creating a three level hierarchy of tags which is Mutsumi (alt persona) -> Mutsumi (alt persona OR costume) -> Mutsumi. That seems a little bit bizarre to me. Why would you have A -> (A or B) but no B? Especially when A and B are both completely independent? One of the main questions here is how to tag B -A (Casual Mortis), which would now be unsearchable under this proposal, unless we keep the pool.

But a three level hierarchy AND a pool is just ridiculous. This proposal and mine end up with the same number of tags, but yours requires a pool as well to keep every concept searchable. The pool is a perfectly taggable concept, there's no reason to rely on a pool for a combination of tags, when we could just have those tags.

I also don't see the complaint about mortis_(persona) being subjective. The tag should just be for when the alternate personality is obviously in control. If the alt persona is clearly present, then it gets tagged. If it's not clearly present, then the persona tag shouldn't be used. And lots of tags are a bit subjective, you don't need to be able to use the tag with 100% certainty in every single case. There's a grey area, but if that's a problem then I can think of a few thousand other tags that also have problems. The Mortis persona is very strikingly "crazy" and the normal Mutsumi is strikingly sad and expressionless, so I think exactly the opposite of what you said: the vast majority of the time, it's going to be pretty obvious whether it applies or not. It's almost literally as simple as "if she's smiling it's Mortis."

The only real downside to my proposal is that when you have persona+costume you have to remember to add two separate tags. I don't think that's that big of a problem.

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silvia ash

Hm. Well, as long as we have our tags for both the persona and the doll, I'm of no mind to complain. I think either of the two open BURs would be perfectly good solutions, so whichever one goes through is fine, to my mind. Though, I still really don't think we need a tag for Mortis out of costume. That seems like an appropriate use of the pool. If I had to choose I'd say keep the pool.

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ANON TOKYO

CoreMack said:

For the benefit of whichever poor admin has to wade in here and make a decision on this, here's a chart to help show what we're talking about (and also to demonstrate why having three subtags at least makes sense):

/* table */

Thanks for this, I was actually thinking of making this when I got home too. I see your points, and I think keeping a pool and kicking it further down the road yet again is actually stupid. However, my modified proposal would be to have an umbrella Mortis tag, and put doll, outfit and persona under this. Yes, this is 3-level, but a handful of search queries are shorter than with a 2-level, without making any other ones longer:

  • Normal Mutsumi mutsumi -doll -outfit -persona becomes mutsumi -mortis
  • Any non-normal Mutsu mutsumi ~doll ~outfit ~persona becomes mortis
  • Any combination of excluding one while including either of the two others i.e. ~doll ~outfit -persona becomes mortis -persona

Combinations like doll outfit -persona and doll -outfit -persona, as well as a bunch of other 2- and 3-tag combinations, stay the same.

Member-level searchability isn't everything, but I personally find the first one in my list, and to a lesser degree the second one, important enough that I think it's worthwhile to make the tree one level deeper. Wildcards are a thing, but I don't like the idea of using those for this, it feels hacky and fragile.

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