Alluka Zoldyck and male_focus

I suggest that "male_focus" is not warranted for the appearance of Alluka Zoldyck. The character's gender is in a dubious position, but the only way we could even think of this character as male is certain pronouns used by people in the origin series. Aside from that, the character looks, acts, and is treated as female, and so I consider this analogous to how we ignore small canon details when tagging. I'd like to contrast this with a character like Bridget from Guilty Gear, whose gender is given a spotlight and is central to the story surrounding it. Alluka Zoldyck is different in my mind, since the most that we get at all that tells us the character could be male is from people that view Alluka as closer to an object than a person. The vagueness brings, in my mind, not enough foundation to overlook the appearance, behavior, and presence of this character in its home media, in line with how we do ignore small canon details when tagging at times.

Maybe this is not something that is debated or "enforced" on Danbooru, but I thought I'd shoot my shot bringing it up.

FWIW, I agree with you, but I've seen a lot of debate on here about how to tag trans characters (although it's true that Alluka isn't stated to be trans). There may be some pushback.

I have not seen HxH and asked the character's gender a while back when I was upping art of them since the gender counters weren't consistent and I saw conflicting official sources. A mod (nonamethanks) said to tag them as 1boy and I believe updated the wiki to reflect this. I can see in the wiki history someone has since changed "brother" to "sibling."

Again haven't seen the show but this is what I was told.

Alluka is a boy that was possessed by a genie (nanika), there's no reason to complicate matters.

nonamethanks said:

Alluka is a boy that was possessed by a genie (nanika), there's no reason to complicate matters.

Where are we getting that Alluka is only referred to as a girl because [he/she] was possessed by Nanika? Should we be tagging Nanika as a girl? They seem to usually get 1other.

The_Bob said:

Where are we getting that Alluka is only referred to as a girl because [he/she] was possessed by Nanika? Should we be tagging Nanika as a girl? They seem to usually get 1other.

Killua refers to Alluka with female pronouns, but still explicitly refers to him as (and introduces him to other characters as) his brother, and so does the rest of his family. Nanika is a genie/spirit that possessed his brother, and who Killua treats as a person instead of a parasite like the rest of his family does, which causes the genie to become emotionally attached to Killua and eager to follow his suggestions.
It's unclear whether Killua is referring to the spirit when he refers to his brother as female, but given that its appearance is that of some weird amorphic creature from the "dark" continent that barely even looks human (post #6147749), it should just be tagged 1other.

Why some terminally online secondary decided that this means that Alluka is trans is beyond me, but this is simply one of the old cases of "draw a girl, call it a boy"-type of traps. There's nothing in the story that suggests otherwise.

> Why some terminally online secondary decided that this means that Alluka is trans is beyond me

> There's nothing in the story that suggests otherwise.

Alluka is primarily referred to and exclusively uses feminine terms and pronouns throughout the series, though. For instance, Killua introduces Alluka to Gon as his sister,[14] Killua stated that Alluka being a girl was the reason they needed female butlers to attend to her on their mission to save Gon,[6] and Killua refers to Alluka as his sister multiple times, including when they were children.[5]

https://hunterxhunter.fandom.com/wiki/Alluka_Zoldyck#Gender_And_Pronoun_Context

reg_panda said:

Did you miss the part right before?

The official databook lists Alluka's sex as male.
Two of Alluka's brothers, Illumi and Milluki, refer to Alluka as their 'brother'.
In flashbacks, Zoldyck servants call Alluka the masculine "bocchan" or "bocchama".
Additionally, Morel seemingly referred to Alluka as Killua's brother, and Killua did not correct him in the Japanese version of the series. Still, the official Viz translation makes this more ambiguous, and the inference of Alluka’s gender identity is only present in a very literal translation of the passage.

Although the Viz version (in Chapter 328, page 11, panels 3 and 4) is dubious about who Morel refers to when he says, "Your brother?!" (Illumi or Alluka), the literal translation of the original Japanese text confirms that—off-panel—Killua introduced Alluka to Morel as being his younger brother:

nonamethanks said:

Killua refers to Alluka with female pronouns, but still explicitly refers to him as (and introduces him to other characters as) his brother

I just reread volumes 31-32, and Killua actually never calls Alluka his brother! The terms he uses are:

• "Siblings", with the Japanese form of the word, 兄妹, that means "older brother and younger sister" ("older and younger brothers" would be 兄弟)
• In dialogue: English, Japanese
• Chapter title: English, Japanese
• "[Younger] sister" (妹)
• Instance 1 (internal monologue): English, Japanese
• Instance 2 (dialogue): English, Japanese

(And, of course, he also says "Alluka's a girl"/アルカは「女の子」だぞ in chapter 324; not a sibling term, but I'll include it for completion's sake: English, Japanese)

Does this happen later in the story?

The panels in question are these (viz translation). For some reason Viz decided to translate it in a way that doesn't make it clear whether the "brother" is referring to Alluka or Illumi, but in the original it was "兄貴が弟を...!?".

Note that even the official databook lists Alluka as "younger brother" (final line, "弟アルカ"). There is zero ambiguity in the series on whether Alluka is male.

nonamethanks said:

The panels in question are these (viz translation). For some reason Viz decided to translate it in a way that doesn't make it clear whether the "brother" is referring to Alluka or Illumi, but in the original it was "兄貴が弟を...!?".

Note that even the official databook lists Alluka as "younger brother" (final line, "弟アルカ"). There is zero ambiguity in the series on whether Alluka is male.

You're claiming that one thing Killua potentially says off-panel takes precedence over the three or four things he does say on-panel, right?

If your contention is that gender should only be tagged according to characters' genitals, then sure. But in that case, obviously there's no reason to bring in-canon sibling terminology into it at all.

nonamethanks said:

Did you miss the part right before?

No. But The Bob found much more many occurrences of Alluka being referred as a girl, both in English and Japanese. This one is very explicit: https://i.imgur.com/Zctch2A.png

There is zero ambiguity in the series on whether Alluka is male.

In English it seems to me she is zero ambiguity girl. The panel above is very explicit about this. I can't talk about the Japanese original.

Also note that this panel is from 2011 (chapter 324), while the official databook is from 2004. So even if the official databook was right and canon, it is not now.

reg_panda said:
while the official databook is from 2004. So even if the official databook was right and canon, it is not now.

The official databook is from 2004 because that was the last timeframe when the manga was regularly published. The most recent 50 chapters of the story were published over the course of the last ten years.

In English it seems to me she is zero ambiguity girl. The panel above is very explicit about this. I can't talk about the Japanese original.

If you can't talk about the Japanese original then why are you trying to claim the databook is not canon?

The_Bob said:

You're claiming that one thing Killua potentially says off-panel takes precedence over the three or four things he does say on-panel, right?

If your contention is that gender should only be tagged according to characters' genitals, then sure. But in that case, obviously there's no reason to bring in-canon sibling terminology into it at all.

The point of contention here is whether Alluka is male or female, as stated by the OP. They claimed that the character's gender is in "is in a dubious position", but there's nothing dubious about this, it's patently obvious that Alluka is male. You have to ignore every single instance of any character other than Killua (including the rest of his family and brothers) using terms like 弟 and Killua in turn acknowledging those references if you want to go down that route.
A valid point would be whether Nanika is female, but when it's even more androgynous than Alluka (post #1054822), what's the point in shoehorning those those posts under 1girl?

nonamethanks said:

The point of contention here is whether Alluka is male or female, as stated by the OP. They claimed that the character's gender is in "is in a dubious position", but there's nothing dubious about this, it's patently obvious that Alluka is male. You have to ignore every single instance of any character other than Killua (including the rest of his family and brothers) using terms like 弟 and Killua in turn acknowledging those references if you want to go down that route.

Exactly correct - in canon, it comes down to the word of Killua's family versus Killua's own. As different characters are shown to have different stances on the matter, it certainly is contentious within the work itself.

• Killua's family refer to Alluka with male terms. As the other members of the family are both shown and stated to see Alluka as a tool rather than a person, they're unlikely to consider [him/her] as anything other than [his/her] birth sex. Therefore, Alluka is presumably male-bodied.*
• Killua refers to Alluka with female terms, including in his own thoughts. Why does he do that?
• Out of consideration for Nanika? Unlikely - it's well established that Killua understands Alluka and Nanika as separate entities/personalities (example: English, Japanese). This is shown especially clearly in chapter 336, when Killua and Nanika have a heart-to-heart (representative panels: English, Japanese). Two chapters later, he calls Alluka "sister"/妹 to [his/her] face (English, Japanese). Presumably he is not doing this for Nanika's benefit.
• Out of consideration for Alluka? Maybe.
• Just for the hell of it? Maybe.
• (Alluka never uses gendered terms for [his/her]self afaict, nor makes any comment on gendered terms with which anyone else refers to [him/her], so both of the last two options are possible.)

*In which case, refer to "If your contention is that gender should only be tagged according to characters' genitals, then sure," and the rest of this discussion is completely moot.

1girl and 1boy are used to filter for male and female character, not male and female pronouns. If I'm looking for traps (or blacklisting them) I shouldn't have to do some bizarre OR search for one of the most popular fetishes on this site just because some of them identify as women.

nonamethanks said:

1girl and 1boy are used to filter for male and female character, not male and female pronouns. If I'm looking for traps (or blacklisting them) I shouldn't have to do some bizarre OR search for one of the most popular fetishes on this site just because some of them identify as women.

Then we have an understanding.

Alluka Zoldyck's gender is absolutely debated in the Japanese community as well. TL from Pixiv

Although Alluka has the appearance and personality of a young girl, their gender is referred to inconsistently as described below, and since there is no depiction that definitely describes them as male or female, fans are still divided after their appearance in the work. As with other gender-ambiguous characters such as Neferpitou and Kalluto, fans have come up with various theories, including "Alluka is female, but Nanika is male", "Alluka's birth sex is male, but Killua alone treats them as female", and "The Zoldyck family raises all of their children as sons regardless of birth sex".

Examples in the work:

- In Chapter 39, the bus guide introduces them as "five siblings" [兄弟]. (If taken based on appearance, there would be three older brothers and two younger sisters, so it wouldn't be a problem to use "brothers and sisters" [兄妹].)
- In the Hunter's Guide released on 2004/6/9, they are introduced as "Killua's younger brother" (page 39). (However, the Hunter's Guide has numerous errors, including Milluki's age and Nobunaga's birthday, so it is not a fully credible source.)
- Servants call them "young master" [坊ちゃん, masculine], Illumi and Milluki use "younger brother", and Killua uses "younger sister".
- Chapter 322's title is "Brother and Sister".
- In Chapter 324, Killua calls them "a girl". (However, "a girl" is in quotation marks, and there is room for interpretation on what these marks mean.)
- Chapter 327 reveals that Alluka's personal pronoun is "atashi".
- In Chapter 328, Killua describes Alluka to Morel as his "younger brother" during a phone call.
- In Chapter 338, Killua introduces Alluka to Gon as his "little sister".

Examples from third-party content:

- In the Jump crossover game Jumputi Heroes, Killua has the line "So you've got a little sister too. Let's get along as big brothers." (This is a line he says to Hiei; Hiei's younger sister is Yukina.)

Alluka is extremely rarely used for trap fetishism. Ever since this became a subject of (bad) mass editing, there have been exactly two posts where Alluka is explicitly drawn as male, which are variants of each other. This is outnumbered by posts where Alluka is explicitly a cis female, SFW posts where Alluka is a (cis or trans) girl, and just SFW posts in general.

feline_lump said:
Alluka is extremely rarely used for trap fetishism.

You and I must have different definitions of "extremely rarely", because I can point to many, many, many, many, many, many, instances of Alluka as a trap, and even some doujinshi. Just because it's not on danbooru doesn't mean it's not out there.

nonamethanks said:

You and I must have different definitions of "extremely rarely", because I can point to many, many, many, many, many, many, instances of Alluka as a trap, and even some doujinshi. Just because it's not on danbooru doesn't mean it's not out there.

Compared to volume of NSFW received by canonical otoko no ko characters, 7 posts that aren't on Danbooru is pretty marginal. I can tell you had to post practically every example there is on Gelbooru and Pixiv because there's not that much of it, and what is there is slightly outnumbered by posts where Alluka is a cis female (or just plain gender-ambiguous).

Given all of the above, I don't think male tags are warranted for Alluka unless the artist explicitly uses that interpretation.

Fandom says:

The official databook lists Alluka's sex as male.

pixiv says:

In the Hunter's Guide released on 2004/6/9, they are introduced as "Killua's younger brother" (page 39). (However, the Hunter's Guide has numerous errors, including Milluki's age and Nobunaga's birthday, so it is not a fully credible source.)

The strongest argument for Alluka's sex seems to be from this guide. However, if the guide is unreliable, then unless there's some bath scene or something, we only have the characters' dialogue to go by. If there isn't anything more definitive, I say we just tag the SFW posts without primary/secondary sex characteristics as 1other and other_focus.

And for the ones that do, I don't think we should use the fact that otoko no ko characters (assuming this character actually is one) are sometimes drawn with puffy chests dissuade us from tagging the character as a girl in cases like post #6186697.