Ratings for non-sex sex acts

Login_to_view said:

I think everyone is overthinking it.
Regarding breast sucking (although it can apply on many other things) - it played for laughs (post #1457005), depicted in a motherly way (post #2838189, post #375060), or is otherwise featured in content without an apparent sexual tension? Then it's Q (or even S depending on the context and depiction).
Is it being done in order to stimulate the partner, or is otherwise featured in content with sexual tension? Then it's E.
post #7963905 is E, there is no doubt about it. It's easy to surmise the context of the picture too (although I would be curious to know what alternate interpretations one could come up with).
I haven't read the entire thread, but I would suggest making a sexual act tag if sex isn't an option.

General visibility is also a factor. Even hardcore sex acts can be Q if they're not clearly shown. Regarding post #7843571, the act doesn't appear as explicit as others, and it's not really focused on in a lot of detail. I'm not saying that's necessarily enough to lower the rating, but it should definitely not be rated higher than post #7963905. At least one of those posts needs to be rerated.

Blank_User said:

General visibility is also a factor. Even hardcore sex acts can be Q if they're not clearly shown. Regarding post #7843571, the act doesn't appear as explicit as others, and it's not really focused on in a lot of detail. I'm not saying that's necessarily enough to lower the rating, but it should definitely not be rated higher than post #7963905. At least one of those posts needs to be rerated.

I think post #7843571 is mild, I wouldn't use explicit to describe it. post #7963905 on the other hand; The close up of the mouth leaving the twitching nipple, the left over saliva, both partners (presumably) being completely nude, the clear and obvious context of two people engaging in sexual gratification. Absolutely explicit. If I could only rate one of those E, it would be that one. I think they should have their ratings switched.

Blank_User said:

General visibility is also a factor. Even hardcore sex acts can be Q if they're not clearly shown. Regarding post #7843571, the act doesn't appear as explicit as others, and it's not really focused on in a lot of detail. I'm not saying that's necessarily enough to lower the rating, but it should definitely not be rated higher than post #7963905. At least one of those posts needs to be rerated.

I think there's a notable difference between "visibility" and "focus". I agree post #7963905 is more explicit in basically every way than post #7843571, but with the latter, even though it's not as explicitly zoomed in on it, it's still the focus of the image in the sense that it's what the image itself is about.

Please don't change ratings on a whim and your understanding when a definite conclusion is not reached yet.
The lewndness level should have nothing to do with the rating. Either everything is or nothing. Rating:e is not something that should be decided on whether an user feels like it, we already have s and g for that and that's a whole mess. Let's not introduce messes with rating:e, too.

:BlobGlareZoom: You guys are tweaking, if you're that confused then just go with Q or S if its above the belt and there's no bodily fluids other than saliva, and ask about the rating so we're not just hoping somebody sensible comes along and gives it a proper rating. Go look at actual explicit images, like ebonyxh posts and unironically desensitize yourselves a bit, careful not to puke though :BlobCatNauseated:.

Provence said:

Please don't change ratings on a whim and your understanding when a definite conclusion is not reached yet.
The lewndness level should have nothing to do with the rating. Either everything is or nothing. Rating:e is not something that should be decided on whether an user feels like it, we already have s and g for that and that's a whole mess. Let's not introduce messes with rating:e, too.

Having both rated E is still an improvement over the posts having inconsistent ratings. You could've at least changed the rating of the other post if you were that certain they were both Q.

The guidelines are not ironclad rules. They never were. It is impossible to be 100% subjective with something like this. They are meant to hold true for the vast majority of posts, but there are always going to be edge cases. That's why users are encouraged to default to the higher rating if they can't figure it out (and not just for G vs S cases). Overrating is preferable to underrating. That doesn't mean users aren't expected to put some actual thought into it.

Bionicman76 said:

:BlobGlareZoom: You guys are tweaking, if you're that confused then just go with Q or S if its above the belt and there's no bodily fluids other than saliva, and ask about the rating so we're not just hoping somebody sensible comes along and gives it a proper rating. Go look at actual explicit images, like ebonyxh posts and unironically desensitize yourselves a bit, careful not to puke though :BlobCatNauseated:.

There's no way we're putting these posts in S. That's not even up for discussion. The guidelines are clear that mild sexual contact is at least Q, and this is somewhere between that and penetrative sex.

Also, you're looking at the higher end of Explicit. It is pointless to discuss extreme fetishes and gore when the debate is about the lower end, the boundary between Q and E. Desensitization is probably the worst strategy for learning how to rate things properly and is likely why we have users putting nudity and breast grabs in S despite what it says in howto:rate.

Blank_User said:

There's no way we're putting these posts in S. That's not even up for discussion. The guidelines are clear that mild sexual contact is at least Q, and this is somewhere between that and penetrative sex.

I meant as a general rule for those confused, not necessarily these posts. It's a temporary solution as opposed to the better and more permanent one of having a good mental point of reference, in short unironically learning not to be so prudish for these kinds of images.

Blank_User said:

why we have users putting nudity and breast grabs in S despite what it says in howto:rate.

Boob touches (mild sexual contact) are sometimes shown in a comedic tone, and +70% percent of the time in anime, so that definitely shouldn't be considered inflexible. Also users tagging nudity as S is in itself an extreme example.

Bionicman76 said:

I meant as a general rule for those confused, not necessarily these posts. It's a temporary solution as opposed to the better and more permanent one of having a good mental point of reference, in short unironically learning not to be so prudish for these kinds of images.

The criteria you listed for a Q or S rating lead me to believe you were talking about breast-sucking posts in general. The closest thing that would be acceptable to put in S would be a breastfeeding mother with sufficient coverage to prevent the viewer from actually seeing anything.

Boob touches (mild sexual contact) are sometimes shown in a comedic tone, and +70% percent of the time in anime, so that definitely shouldn't be considered inflexible. Also users tagging nudity as S is in itself an extreme example.

Comedic tone does not negate the sexual nature of the act. Many ecchi anime rely on that mix. Subtlety is more likely to lower the rating. For example, if it seems mostly incidental but the image is nonsexual overall (like brushing up lightly against the breast during a hug), it might be eligible for S. Breast-sucking when presented as a sexual act cannot be shown with the same subtlety and is thus much less likely (infinitesimally so) to be borderline S.

The examples I gave are based on my own experience rerating posts. I see them rated S almost every day, even when there's no possible way to argue for them being Q. The issue with desensitization has been discussed many times in the forums and it's why we sometimes need to push back a little hard to maintain the boundaries.

Our standards are not based on what's acceptable in anime, but on what's acceptable in Western countries, mainly the United States (since that's where we're hosted). Some users might be okay with looking at mild fanservice but might not want to see To Love-Ru-level content. We are not giving these things higher ratings because we're prudes; some of us have no personal issue with that content. We just want to make sure all users, even the prudish ones, are able to tailor their browsing experience to suit their own needs.

Blank_User said:

The guidelines are not ironclad rules. They never were. It is impossible to be 100% subjective with something like this. They are meant to hold true for the vast majority of posts, but there are always going to be edge cases. That's why users are encouraged to default to the higher rating if they can't figure it out (and not just for G vs S cases). Overrating is preferable to underrating. That doesn't mean users aren't expected to put some actual thought into it.

This is a fundemental issue. If you can't press things into "ironclad" rules, then what good are guidelines.
You end up with inconsistencies even though there should not be any. This topic also isn't about edge cases, like what happens when there's lactation.
Either breast sucking is fundementally e OR q, not both based on the whim of certain users. And to me, it just feels wrong to lump that into the rating where stuff like actual penetration happens. A gradient exists in every rating but I see a clear cut difference between pentration and breast sucking.

Provence said:

This is a fundemental issue. If you can't press things into "ironclad" rules, then what good are guidelines.
You end up with inconsistencies even though there should not be any. This topic also isn't about edge cases, like what happens when there's lactation.
Either breast sucking is fundementally e OR q, not both based on the whim of certain users. And to me, it just feels wrong to lump that into the rating where stuff like actual penetration happens. A gradient exists in every rating but I see a clear cut difference between pentration and breast sucking.

Guideline: a general rule, principle, or piece of advice

It's literally not supposed to be ironclad, that's why we call them guidelines, not rules. The ratings are not and never have been strict and have always been subject to varying degree to the "whims" of users. Even admins have suggested this is how it works multiple times.

As long as things that clearly should be rated E aren't ending up in S or anything inappropriate ending up in G, it's not the end of the world if some things end up in a weird place between two ratings.

Breast sucking is not mentioned by name anywhere in howto:rate, which means that we should be using our best judgement to decide where each example fits, instead of throwing fits because we can't rationalize the ratings ourselves without being explicitly told like children what to do. Even a lot of the things that are mentioned by name are general case examples, and not meant to apply to 100% of situations.

blindVigil said:

It's literally not supposed to be ironclad, that's why we call them guidelines, not rules. The ratings are not and never have been strict and have always been subject to varying degree to the "whims" of users. Even admins have suggested this is how it works multiple times.

As long as things that clearly should be rated E aren't ending up in S or anything inappropriate ending up in G, it's not the end of the world if some things end up in a weird place between two ratings.

Breast sucking is not mentioned by name anywhere in howto:rate, which means that we should be using our best judgement to decide where each example fits, instead of throwing fits because we can't rationalize the ratings ourselves without being explicitly told like children what to do. Even a lot of the things that are mentioned by name are general case examples, and not meant to apply to 100% of situations.

Guidelines are useless when there's no baseline.
And the baseline clearly does not exist, hence we have these inconsistencies. These can't be desired because everyone just does what they think is the correct approach. I hope you see the issue of such a loose handling of guidelines.
Again, this isn't about edge cases but there has to be a general consensus.

Breast sucking is not sex. Clear and concise enough?

Bionicman76 said:

Breast sucking is not sex. Clear and concise enough?

Eating ass is also not explicitly sex.

I think it's pretty clear that no new arguments can be given here. Fair enough, it's a fairly straightforward topic.
So, would be nice if we get a clear directive from higher up.

Breast sucking isn't covered in howto:rate because frankly I'm not sure where to put it myself. If you define sex act as "stimulation of the genitals" then it doesn't count. If you define it as "any form of sexual stimulation" then it would count. But so would nipple stimulation and groping and many other things too, which probably would make rating:e too broad.

For that reason I lean towards saying it should be Q. There's a difference in degree between breast sucking and things like cunnilingus or fingering. The division between Q and E is meant to capture that difference. On a practical level, it's useful to be able to search breast_sucking rating:e and breast_sucking rating:q to separate "real sex" from foreplay.

So, use best judgement, got it.

blindVigil said:

So, use best judgement, got it.

Not quite.
The baseline is that it's q.

Provence said:

Not quite.
The baseline is that it's q.

Yeah, unless there's lactation, which can count as a body fluid. This was mentioned previously ITT, although it seems like that topic was never touched again, so I'm bringing it up once more.

Provence said:

Not quite.
The baseline is that it's q.

No, evazion said he would lean towards Q. That doesn't make it the baseline, or it would just be listed in Q to begin with. We do not need to make this another "admin said this so it's now site policy" incident like happens everytime they give an opinion on something.

The gist of his entire comment was that, like I said before, breast sucking doesn't cleanly fit into Q or E. Maybe the majority will be Q, maybe not. It's going to depend on the image.

blindVigil said:

No, evazion said he would lean towards Q. That doesn't make it the baseline, or it would just be listed in Q to begin with. We do not need to make this another "admin said this so it's now site policy" incident like happens everytime they give an opinion on something.

The gist of his entire comment was that, like I said before, breast sucking doesn't cleanly fit into Q or E. Maybe the majority will be Q, maybe not. It's going to depend on the image.

Evazion has said that breast sucking on its own is to be considered as foreplay and only additional stuff make an image depicting breast sucking e.
That means breast sucking on its own CAN'T make an image being rated e. That's all.