Donmai

Strive Bridget gender update

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punished_K said:

Bridget also represents only 0.04% of the entire Danbooru archive (Strive!Bridget: 0.29%).

All this talk of "users mass-leaving because of 1 gender change" just feels like a load of internet hysteria, mixed with right-wing talking points (still have not found a definition of "woke") / transgender discrimination.

It's true that 99% of users couldn't care less that one or two characters isn't being tagged "correctly", whatever one considers to be "correct", but anyone claiming they can't find a definition of "woke" is either lying or not actually trying. It took one five second google search to turn up a Wikipedia page on it, as well as Mirriam-Webster, Urban Dictionary, and a dozen other places. Take your pick.

> All this talk of "users mass-leaving because of 1 gender change" just feels like a load of internet hysteria [snipped]

Hah, that's not what I said at all. I said that a bad decision by admins would essentially lead to a slippery slope. This isn't a political issue, and I'm not American so I am not going to comment on the politics of America's right wing. I hope the staff majority make the right choice and don't listen to the agenda pushers

> still have not found a definition of "woke"

Woke is a term referring to neo-social upheaval agendas aimed at upsetting the status quo of society. It usually involves making a minority group out as "oppressed" and the majority (status quo) as an oppressor. That's my understanding of the term. In this context, wokeness refers to attempts to break down definitions of male and female, the roles of women and men, and to introduce new, meaningless categories, which bleeds into this reply:

> They're androgynous. In fact, they've transcended human existence. Just like me.

There's no word for "they" here, as Japanese (like Chinese) is topic-comment. There is no singular they in these languages, just he/she/it, which isn't explicitly stated here. So if you wanna say "it's androgynous" go for it, but it's probably a bit redundant. Gears aren't human, so the second comment can mean "Testament is no longer human" in the same manner. The last statement is clearly a humor attempt. I can sit here and slice and dice your translation some more, but it's important to note that it's really easy to manipulate facts using poor understandings of a language and mining out quotes.

Androgyny doesn't mean nonbinary, it predates the term. Are we supposed to now suddenly consider any effeminate man or masculine/tomboyish woman as a nonbinary because they don't conform to Western idealized men and women? Seems kinda... /Sexist/ if you ask me, kek.

> without peppering said rebuttal with snide insults would go even further.

I am passive aggressive because the notion of this topic is hilarious. Nothing more nothing less :) that said let me consider your proposal:

It does seem like an attempt at compromise, but would disrupt tagging further. So my rhetorical question in response is "is this not going to just make everything more complex and try to skirt the larger problem here entirely?"

The current policy aligns with the current rules of danbooru, end of story. Attempts to change it would essentially require making exceptions to the rules which quickly gets complex and ridiculous. Rather than trying to indulge people who probably don't care and cater to a minority of site users, maintaining the status quo and putting this BUR in the refuse pile is probably for the best.

g6672D said:

I'll wager that's less than the opposite case, but I'm not a mind reader either way. Picture content and the character's history is more useful than assuming somewhat recent canon though, particularly for what search returns.

Yeah, that's fair, nobody really can tell what an artist is thinking unless they explicitly say it, either one of us could be right >_>
I was just miffed at even official art being tagged with otoko no ko considering... It's the official company, of course they would draw their trans girl character thinking she's a girl.

Blank_User said:

Back to the topic of tagging, there is one suggestion I saw in the original threads that did not seem to get much discussion. Instead of tagging SFW Bridget as 1boy or 1girl, we could use 1other. To flesh this idea out further, consider Frisk and Chara from Undertale, who's canonical sexes are unknown. They could be biologically male, female, intersex, anything. However, some artists will interpret them as a boy or girl. In those cases, we simply use 1boy and 1girl. Things like Mars/Venus symbols are usually enough for SFW posts such as post #7038474. We already tag Bridget as 1girl in posts where it is clear from visual evidence she is meant to be seen as a trans girl and there is no physical evidence of her being male (forum #222668). The only real difference between Bridget and Frisk is that Bridget's canonical physical sex is known. If we disregard canon entirely, Bridget would be treated no different from Frisk.

Consider also that we can't really know for sure what proportion of artists see Bridget as a boy or a girl. If there are a significant number of artists that do explicitly depict Bridget as a trans girl in SFW posts, it doesn't make sense to make 1boy the default. We could still use 1boy and 1girl according to artist commentary (in the original language) and artist-added tags if it doesn't contradict visual evidence. Tagging posts as 1other would basically be saying "We have no way of knowing whether this Bridget is meant to be seen as a boy or a girl."

This should work in theory, but I know there are a lot of users attached to this character in particular being classified as an otoko no ko, and labeling posts as 1other would also mean the otoko no ko tag wouldn't apply. I also think some would think we'd be treating Bridget as an exception, but most otoko no ko characters don't have the same issues. The majority of these characters would still be classified as 1boy otoko no ko because we can be reasonably sure the artist is depicting them as boys unless otherwise specified. Regardless, the idea of removing otoko no ko from a lot of Bridget posts would not sit well with some users, and while I think this is worth considering, I also know we need to keep in mind how these changes will affect the user experience.

I like this idea. If we can't tell what gender an artist intends to draw Bridget as, why not 1other? It says it's for character's of indeterminate gender. Bridget can just be an exception to the "if we don't know their canon gender" rule because we can't tell what gender she is for the average image here. (Not to mention, apparently using "canon" as a reason to tag Bridget as a girl isn't good enough for the majority of naysayers) Hell, I personally would even be open to tagging otoko no ko as well to add to this exception rule. The majority of danbooru users don't probably care about tags being "correct" or not, and the people who do care... IDK, maybe this is a good enough compromise for both sides? I like it, at least.

Bridget has caused so much commotion that I think these kinds of threads aren't ever going to end unless some kind of compromise is reached ^^;;

GuanXiao said:

If you wanna say "it's androgynous" go for it, but it's probably a bit redundant. Gears aren't human, so the second comment can mean "Testament is no longer human" in the same manner. I can sit here and slice and dice your translation some more, but it's important to note that it's really easy to manipulate facts using poor understandings of a language and mining out quotes.

Androgyny doesn't mean nonbinary, it predates the term. Are we supposed to now suddenly consider any effeminate man or masculine/tomboyish woman as a nonbinary because they don't conform to Western idealized men and women? Seems kinda... /Sexist/ if you ask me, kek.

No matter what you think, it's clear that the literal non-binary (as in, not gender-identity, but literally not being solely a man or a woman) interpretation is what was taken forward for Strive, especially with the later affirmation of Testament being agender, which the folks over on Pixpedia, along with all the other lore info shared in Strive, have taken to interpret (under 外見・服装) that Testament probably has nothing between their legs now (in contrast to the previous view that they had both sets, a view that can be confirmed by looking at Testament's pre-Strive Pixpedia entry which listed in Related Tags futanari, and the Pixpedia entry for futanari still considers old Testament an example of futa). Regardless, even if the term 'non-binary' (or the Japanese 'x-gender') wasn't used, the literal sense of the word applied to Testament for years, falling into a third distinct group, and so due to terminological convenience that's the term used in English. Testament has gone beyond androgyny now.

morriganaensland said:

Yeah, that's fair, nobody really can tell what an artist is thinking unless they explicitly say it, either one of us could be right >_>
I was just miffed at even official art being tagged with otoko no ko considering... It's the official company, of course they would draw their trans girl character thinking she's a girl.

I like this idea. If we can't tell what gender an artist intends to draw Bridget as, why not 1other? It says it's for character's of indeterminate gender. Bridget can just be an exception to the "if we don't know their canon gender" rule because we can't tell what gender she is for the average image here. (Not to mention, apparently using "canon" as a reason to tag Bridget as a girl isn't good enough for the majority of naysayers) Hell, I personally would even be open to tagging otoko no ko as well to add to this exception rule. The majority of danbooru users don't probably care about tags being "correct" or not, and the people who do care... IDK, maybe this is a good enough compromise for both sides? I like it, at least.

Bridget has caused so much commotion that I think these kinds of threads aren't ever going to end unless some kind of compromise is reached ^^;;

To be honest, I'm still not 100% sure whether or not this is a good idea. While I have no problems with Bridget being a trans girl, I would personally prefer maintaining the status quo over making a change that could potentially disrupt tagging for a lot of people. I mainly brought it up because I almost never see this option presented and thought it might provide some fresh ideas, not necessarily because I'm trying to reach a compromise (though that would be a nice bonus). Also because Evazion proved there are some (very limited) conditions in which we may tag characters with a different gendertag without a visible genderswap. But thanks for the support regardless.

I think most users probably care a lot about tags, or at least the ones relevant to their browsing activity. I don't know how this would affect otoko no ko fans as I don't have any strong feelings about these characters, so I'm hoping they could provide some insight about how this would affect their browsing experience, preferably while keeping political discourse to a minimum. In any case, I'm not comfortable with the idea of keeping otoko no ko on 1other posts since they are clearly contradictory.

Blank_User said:
In any case, I'm not comfortable with the idea of keeping otoko no ko on 1other posts since they are clearly contradictory.

I am not sure, why not? Currently for otoko no ko the wiki says

男の娘 (Otoko no ko) is a Japanese slang term used to refer to natal males (male at birth) with the appearance of the female gender.

Since Bridget was born with a penis, s/he should stay otoko no ko even when he is a boy, she is a girl, or they are unknown gender.

Updated

reg_panda said:

I am not sure, why not? Currently for otoko no ko the wiki says

Since Bridget was born with a penis, s/he should stay otoko no ko even when he is a boy, she is a girl, or they are unknown gender.

The wiki likely wasn't written with possible outliers like Bridget in mind. After all, if all physically male characters are tagged 1boy anyway, there's no need to consider its use for 1girl or 1other.

Also, evazion himself stated that Bridget should not be tagged with 1girl and otoko no ko at the same time. From the forum post I linked to before (forum #222668):

evazion said:

Now, I think it's fair to say that Bridget should be tagged as a girl when the artist explicitly depicts her as a transgender girl. So I'll say Bridget should be tagged as 1girl in SFW Strive posts where the artist explicitly depicts her as transgender. "Explicitly transgender" means things like with the transgender flag or trans colors. "SFW" means rating:G posts.

So this means the posts under bridget_(guilty_gear) transgender_flag rating:g should be tagged as 1girl. This is a grand total of 11 posts. This also means the otoko no ko tag should be removed from these posts.

Thank you!

I think the wiki was written with trans girls and non-binary characters in mind, considering that it uses "natal males" and "male at birth" redundantly, instead of "boy". (This was more clear before the edit https://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_page_versions/diff?thispage=447564&type=previous)

As far as I understand from glancing over the thread, the wiki of otoko no ko is in contrast with the current majority view, that the tag should not apply to trans girls, is that correct?

Updated

reg_panda said:
As far as I understand from glancing over the thread, the wiki of otoko no ko is in contrast with the current majority view, that the tag should not apply to trans girls, is that correct?

??? Otoko no ko has nothing to do with whether or not the character identifies as trans. It just applies to feminine looking men regardless of what they identify as.

Mavado said:

??? Otoko no ko has nothing to do with whether or not the character identifies as trans. It just applies to feminine looking men regardless of what they identify as.

I am super confused by this reply.

Probably you misunderstood me. I did not write (or tried not to write) that otoko no ko should apply exclusively to trans and other non-binary people. Just that the wiki very clearly include them too.

Or was your answer just a "no", meaning that my impression is wrong, and current otoko no ko usage includes trans girls too, such as Bridget (when trans girl)? Then I still don't see why evasion said that

So this means the posts under bridget_(guilty_gear) transgender_flag rating:g should be tagged as 1girl. This is a grand total of 11 posts. This also means the otoko no ko tag should be removed from these posts.

What do I miss?

Updated

reg_panda said:

What do I miss?

How about the part where you claimed your position was in the majority when the poll in the first post of this thread has roughly three times as many people voting NO to tagging Bridget as a girl?

Mavado said:

How about the part where you claimed your position was in the majority when the poll in the first post of this thread has roughly three times as many people voting NO to tagging Bridget as a girl?

There's clearly a communication breakdown on both sides here. reg_panda made no indication of personally holding any position and was just trying to understand the situation.

As for the voting, it had nothing to do with how otoko no ko is applied in general. It does apply to trans girls if we're tagging them as boys, which we do the vast majority of the time. Evazion made a very specific exception by allowing SFW Bridget posts with clear transgender references to be tagged as 1girl and considered the removal of the otoko no ko tag from those posts as a natural consequence. He then opened the vote for whether we tag SFW Bridget as a girl by default, which is the same as the BUR that started this current thread.

The logic for otoko no ko is simple: if they're tagged as 1boy, they could potentially qualify. If they're tagged as 1girl or 1other, then they don't.

DanbooruBot said:

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

Thank the Chinese gods that I'm not the only one speaking common sense. Of course this will be spun as "danbooru the H site is transphobic" by someone.

blindVigil said:

It literally doesn't, but you'd need the integrity to read beyond the first line to know that.

Honestly it makes me wonder if they read the article at all, or just asked ChatGPT to find a male pronoun in it.

GuanXiao said:

Thank the Chinese gods that I'm not the only one speaking common sense. Of course this will be spun as "danbooru the H site is transphobic" by someone.

I don't understand how making up strawmen is related to this forum post.

Wicloz said:

The article linked by OP refers to Bridget only as a "son"? https://www.guiltygear.com/ggst/en/news/post-1657/

If you read a bit more, it says she identifies as a woman after Strive's arcade mode.
Furthermore, her bio in game uses the same text and yet still uses she/her pronouns.
I'm sure the devs intend her to be a girl now, but they're not removing her backstory or anything, referring to her as her birth gender is a given when talking about her.

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