Onis and their horns

BUR #20932 has been rejected.

create alias oni_horns -> forehead_horns
remove alias oni_horns -> forehead_horns
deprecate oni_horns

The whole oni tag is a bit of a mess, with several characters with very differing designs being tagged under it. Cleaning it would be a pretty big task, but I think we can start with this.

Oni horns is a bad tag, since onis don't have any real reference point. I get this is also a problem with dragon horns and demon horns, but one thing at a time. Currently, its being used on horns that don't really have anything in common, with 3 main designs:

• Ibuki Suika's brown horns (see also Yamato's orange horns). This is basically pure canon tagging.
• Shuten Douji's front horns, usually skin-covered, (see also Nakiri Ayame, Rindou Mikoto, Ibaraki Douji's black horns, Hoshiguma (arknights) and Hoshiguma Yuugi's single horn).
• Lum's small horns (see also Zero two's red horns, Kijin Seija's white horns).

Of these three, group 2 has the best case for retaining the tag. What I'm choosing to split this on is the position of the horns. The "default" for horns is for them to be on the sides or at least the top of the head, with some variations between artists. What we don't have a tag for is horns that are on the forehead / front of the head. (Horn color is extremely undertagged but eh). The only issue is that onis themselves are never depicted with consistent horn placement. Go to google images and search for oni, and most of them will have it on their foreheads, but not all. Searching oni horns just gets anime characters with skin-covered or front horns. I'm ambivalent on either forehead_horns or front_horns as the tag name.

If this BUR goes through, I can clean out the first and third groups from the tag.

Downvoting because I think aliasing it to forehead horns is a bad idea. There are cases of non-oni characters with horns on their forehead so this would just make it too hard to deal with. Deprecating it itself should be fine.

+1 for deprecation.

This tag is "horns belonging to oni characters", a quick look at the results will show how diluted it's become. post #6854702, post #6855015, post #6854171 (you could argue this last one is the "true" oni horns), etc. There's a ton of different concepts under this tag.

skin-covered horns is equivalent to the original idea of the tag and explicitly excludes the many cases of pedantic tagging by virtue of the name.

BUR #20933 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

deprecate oni_horns

Talulah said:
There are cases of non-oni characters with horns on their forehead

Yeah, that's what I'm going for. We don't have a tag for this at all, so if you want to see characters with horns on the front of their heads (who may or may not be oni), you're SOL. Doing a forehead_horns skin-covered_horns search would get you oni, forehead_horns -skin-covered_horns will get you characters who aren't.

But if the pure deprecation is more preferred, I'll add that as an alternative vote just so something happens.

I disagree until there is a tag that covers this very specific style. Looks like this is a case of a few Fate girls and other popular IP characters diluting a real concept.

post #6074788
post #5452963
post #6046257
post #5113561
post #4340142

zetsubousensei said:

I disagree until there is a tag that covers this very specific style. Looks like this is a case of a few Fate girls and other popular IP characters diluting a real concept.

post #6074788
post #5452963
post #6046257
post #5113561
post #4340142

That could fall under traditional oni horns or something.

zetsubousensei said:

I disagree until there is a tag that covers this very specific style. Looks like this is a case of a few Fate girls and other popular IP characters diluting a real concept.

post #6074788
post #5452963
post #6046257
post #5113561
post #4340142

or striped horns + yellow horns + optionally small horns, as post #52783 and post #5340676 have already
im worried a traditional_oni_horns tag would get shitted up with skin-covered_horns

zetsubousensei said:

I disagree until there is a tag that covers this very specific style. Looks like this is a case of a few Fate girls and other popular IP characters diluting a real concept.

I doubt it's just a case of mainstream characters diluting it, because you look up 鬼 online and you find examples such as this, this, and this. You can even consider oni masks and how they generally depict horns in different ways. Oni horns were never consistently portrayed as such.

thelieutenant said:

or striped horns + yellow horns + optionally small horns, as post #52783 and post #5340676 have already

That's a non-starter. I would bet the vast majority of those horns are currently not tagged with those tags, and they're sometimes red or orange or blue too, not just yellow (thinking of some Dragon Ball oni), or without stripes.

The aim of this deprecation imo should be to create individual tags for each of the currently untagged types of horns that are getting dumped under oni horns.

nonamethanks said:

I would bet the vast majority of those horns are currently not tagged with those tags, and they're sometimes red or orange or blue too, not just yellow (thinking of some Dragon Ball oni), or without stripes.

You'd thinking of Goz and Mez, who have pale yellow horns (probably intended to be bone-colored). But one of my examples of non-"stubby striped yellow horns" traditional oni had red, blue greyish and even brownish horns.

We should get better specific horn tags first and populate them before the BUR gets through.
Stuff like gradient horns should be in the oni wiki and populated more for example.

thelieutenant said:

or striped horns + yellow horns + optionally small horns, as post #52783 and post #5340676 have already
im worried a traditional_oni_horns tag would get shitted up with skin-covered_horns

I think we need an actual tag for this. Depending on multiple underused tags is not a solution and makes them as good as unsearchable.

Names that come to mind
short oni horns that can then imply short horns
small oni horns

It's a classic concept that deserves its own tag IMO.

The problem here is that different taggers use oni horns to mean two different things, and while these definitions sometimes agree they are not equivalent:

1. Oni horns are a visually distinct subtype of horn (on the forehead, smooth, straight, skin-colored), which are named after a particular association (depictions of oni often exhibit this subtype). The visual characteristics are essential, the association is optional. Under this definition, it can be valid to tag a non-oni as having oni horns, or an oni as having horns that aren't oni horns.

2. Oni horns are the horns of an oni, period. These horns sometimes exhibit distinctive traits, sometimes not. The association is essential, the visual characteristics are irrelevant. Under this definition, a non-oni having oni horns is impossible, a non sequitur.

If we decide that #1 is correct, then the tag needs to be greatly pruned, although the effort needed wouldn't be all that great, as oni with horns that aren't oni horns mostly consist of a few well-known and well-tagged characters like Lum and Suika.
If we decide that #2 is correct, then the tag should be nuked, as it is a conjunction tag equivalent to the tags oni and horns applied independently.

The term oni horns itself is only problematic if we insist on strict literalness, which we don't and shouldn't. Do we insist hime cut only be applied to characters who are actual princesses? Does aran sweater mean a sweater made in the Aran Islands?

Arcana55 said:

1. Oni horns are a visually distinct subtype of horn (on the forehead, smooth, straight, skin-colored), which are named after a particular association (depictions of oni often exhibit this subtype). The visual characteristics are essential, the association is optional. Under this definition, it can be valid to tag a non-oni as having oni horns, or an oni as having horns that aren't oni horns.

If we decide that #1 is correct, then the tag needs to be greatly pruned, although the effort needed wouldn't be all that great, as oni with horns that aren't oni horns mostly consist of a few well-known and well-tagged characters like Lum and Suika.

The term oni horns itself is only problematic if we insist on strict literalness, which we don't and shouldn't.

The fact that you're able to say "oni horns refers to the kinds of horns shuten douji has, not the kinds of horns lum has" when we had "oni horns refers to the kinds of horns lum has, not the ones shuten douji has" earlier in the thread...

zetsubousensei said:

I disagree until there is a tag that covers [the stubby striped oni horn style that, among others, Lum has]. Looks like this is a case of a few Fate girls and other popular IP characters diluting a real concept.

...goes to show that the tag needs to be deprecated. Because as I had pointed out, there is no one proper oni horn style. Not before the 20th century, and not since. Only different common varieties that people just associate with them.

Admiral_Pectoral said:

I think we need an actual tag for this. Depending on multiple underused tags is not a solution and makes them as good as unsearchable.

Names that come to mind
short oni horns that can then imply short horns
small oni horns

It's a classic concept that deserves its own tag IMO.

I do agree with the idea of making a tag for the stubby oni horns though.

Arcana55 said:

1. Oni horns are a visually distinct subtype of horn (on the forehead, smooth, straight, skin-colored), which are named after a particular association (depictions of oni often exhibit this subtype).

Your very first sentence is wrong. The first posts tagged with oni horns on danbooru were post #761374, post #1135264, post #1054892. Do those fall under "a visually distinct subtype of horn (on the forehead, smooth, straight, skin-colored)" to you?

This is why this tag is a mess and needs to be sorted out. Nobody can agree on what oni horns are.

Some more "oni" horns currently being tagged under this tag: post #6763700, post #6823089. These should get their own tags too.

If we can't agree what the distinct subtype is or should be, then #1 is right out. There isn't any point retaining it on extant posts; it should be nuked. Along with demon horns and dragon horns, which in my experience have even less of a consistent form.

How about a cone horns or a cone-shaped horns tag for Lum-style horns? Going through Seija right now and tagging the size and color and I'm noticing that some artists draw her with Lum-style horns and some artists draw her with sharper horns.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

The thing about oni horns is that even a google search for them has different results. They can be sideways, on forehead, skin covered, bull or goat-like, short or long, straight or curvy. It's a bit of a problem but it's hard to point what is oni horns and what is not.

Now, from my experience it is used when a character is meant to be an oni - cosplaying as one or being one. Certain kinds like sheep_horns are definitely not those of an oni. The tag has a purpose because it filters depictions of an oni with horns. It has a use for a danbooru user to search for them. It is not something obvious and defining oni horns is difficult, but the concept of it is not conflicting with other horned characters.

Compare with magical_girl, there is no obvious way to define one, take a look at post #5699916 post #6314254 post #6988897. These are all easily recognizable magical girls, even though they are very different.

Vasi1 said:

The tag has a purpose because it filters depictions of an oni with horns. It has a use for a danbooru user to search for them. It is not something obvious and defining oni horns is difficult, but the concept of it is not conflicting with other horned characters.

im not a fan of this, since it leads to circular logic and pointless tags
"well this character is an oni/demon/dragon so i will tag them with oni_horns/demon_horns/dragon_horns because that is what they are"

in other news ive populated cone horns to several thousand, mostly seija (not even a fuckin oni lmao) and lum but would appreciate other taggers