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Donmai

Reverse Jointed Legs to be used for mechanical entities only

Posted under Tags

Hello,

The tag Reverse Jointed Legs is a small tag with only 15 posts and no wiki, I propose a wiki definition that only allows the tag to be used on mechanised entities such as robots, walkers and mechas, removing the tag from existing biological entity posts with it. I'd like to hear inputs from other users too on this topic.

TL;DR: A proposal for the phrase 'Reverse Jointed Legs' to be used for describing mecha/walkers with birds-like reversed jointed legs, bird may look like they have reversed joints but they are anatomically similar in posture to a mammalian hind leg, you wouldn't tag a cat with reverse jointed legs, and going back to mass tag every post that have birds/bird_legs with it isn't entirely applicable either. It is a term coined for and should be used exclusively for mechanical creations.

My argument for this is based on the concept of mechanical 'reverse jointed legs' is inspired by the appearance of avian legs, but there are no true reverse joints in nature for endoskeletal vertebrates, the appearance of a reverse jointed knee is purely visual, anatomically speaking these reverse jointed legs has the exact same amount of joints and equivalent parts as forward bending legs such as human's. Where as mechanical constructs can be inspired by biological anatomy while not being bound by the amount of joints, and some of them are capable of having a true reverse joint.

The most notable biological example being the flightless birds that relies on their legs for movement, digitigrade (creatures that walks on their toes) such as chicken and ostrich appear to have a backward bending knee, but when anatomically compared to a human, that 'knee' is actually an equivalent of an ankle, and below it is their tarsal/metatarsal (our equivalent would be the palm of foot). In the case of an ostrich, their femur (thigh) is actually inside of their body and provides torsional movements. Some water birds such as ducks may have their femur further inside their body, in the extreme case of a penguin their tarsal is far smaller, giving them the appearance of having stubby legs, but anatomically speaking they still have all the parts and joints present.

'Reverse jointed legs' does not apply only to avian, in fact most if not all digitigrade animals have this kind of leg structure, most easily recalled example being cat and dog hind legs. Unlike birds, their femur is not inside their body, as well as having different length of each individual leg sections, it does not give off the 'chicken leg' appearance but still performing a similar load bearing posture like the avian legs, simply because they are both digitigrade creatures. By standing on your toes we can also assume the 'reverse jointed' stance, but within minutes we will quickly realise our body is not fit for such a posture and our weight distribution places stress on body parts that we don't typically place load on, we as plantigrade (walks on our soles) are not using our phalanges/tarsal joint, the appearance of our forward bending joint is because anatomically our leg parts are designed to have an upright load bearing femur.

Star Wars' AT-ST walker is widely regarded as a reverse jointed walker, even though upon closer examination one can see that they do indeed have a load bearing femur, it's just very short and albeit not entirely visible, as well as not capable of torsional movement, an AT-ST walker just have a very high 'knee'. Even though it isn't a true reverse joint because it mimicked an avian leg down to every joint, the term was applied because it has the appearance.

There are examples of true 'reverse joints', a more recent example being Bethesda's Starfield, the NPC robot companion 'VASCO' has only two sections on their leg connected by a backwards knee, the waist joint is a true backward bending load bearing joint, anatomically different from vertebrates by having less joints/sections. Another example is Boston Dynamics' robotic product 'Spot', having backwards knee connected two section legs, also having the backwards bending connection joint at the torso, not having digits what so ever.

Thank you for your time.

  • Instances like post #5967389 need to be tagged.
  • Creating a counter-intuitive rule because of technicalities never is a good idea for tags. if it looks like a reverse-jointed leg, then for all tagging purposes, it is.

Not to mention, the tag here is currently minuscule, trying to divide it is pointless anyway.

Ajisaiii said:

post #5967389 is borderline anatomical nonsense, one look at a bat skeleton and you will see that the legs does not bend backwards, if it was suppose to be a personification of a bat then it's an interesting take at best.

Bats are fun!

The Smithsonian said:
Unlike other mammals, the [bat's] hind limbs are positioned so that the knees, when bent, point backward while the bottom of the feet face forward.

If you want a split between robots and living beings, "chicken walker" was a popular name for reverse jointed mechs back in the day. I guess I'm ambivalent about splitting it.

Ajisaiii said:

post #5967389 is borderline anatomical nonsense, one look at a bat skeleton and you will see that the legs does not bend backwards, if it was suppose to be a personification of a bat then it's an interesting take at best.

With a clear definition attached to the tag then it can be applied to more post, and hopefully no longer minuscule.

I mean i get that things aren't accurate, but that's not what anatomical nonsense is for.
I also think the tag should be bigger, but having a wiki isn't what will achieve that. It would be a mix of aliases with names people are likely to intuitively think of (even if i don't know what those aliases would be for this case), and the tag itself getting more chances of being discovered like being linked to on related wiki pages, and most importantly, actually starting to populate the tag to a degree. With that, then it would make sense to split the tag into one for mechs and one for humanoid fleshy characters, but having a tag for the latter at all is to be done before restraining the currently existing tag to mechs only

heartattack said:

Bats are fun!

If you want a split between robots and living beings, "chicken walker" was a popular name for reverse jointed mechs back in the day. I guess I'm ambivalent about splitting it.

walker (robot) already exists as a tag but not every mecha with chicken style legs is a walker, especially with the recent influx of Armored Core 6 art (notably Steel Haze aside from player custom units). Conversely, not ever walker has chicken-style reverse joint legs as it also applies to non-bipedal/spider-like machines like post #6258328 and post #5997664

Yes, multi limb walkers that are clearly inspired by insects can often times show up with an extra section of the limb, corresponding to the 'coxa' section. I've taken the advice and populated the tag reverse jointed legs within the mecha tag post by post since my last reply, applied it conservatively, left out a lot of insect/spider/crab inspired walkers.

Mavado said:

I wouldn't rule out the tag appearing on certain alien or monster girl posts.

Also, I'd argue that stuff like post #6258227 or post #1043213 would be better tagged as multi-jointed legs instead.

As my first post suggests, alien posts such as post #6258227 (Halo's Jackal) and post #999359 (Halo's Sangheili) have the same anatomy as a normal mammalian hind leg such as a cat (post #6365452). But mechanised designs such as the leg from post #1043213 an additional heel is present that most biological creatures lack.

When it comes to multi-jointed legs though, I believe something from post #1691905 is more suitable.

post #6258227, post #1043213, and post #5967389 all are examples of reverse-jointed legs.

Attempting to put arbitrary clauses on a tag whose name speaks for itself is futile, as we've learned many times before. The tag is called "reverse-jointed legs", it'll get tagged on any kind of reverse-jointed legs. No amount of wiki infodump is going to convince someone who's just uploading a monster girl with reverse-jointed legs that reverse jointed legs is only for mechanical reverse-jointed legs.

If you want to only see robots and exclude living beings, there's already a simple solution: reverse_jointed_legs mecha.

This tag should obviously exclude things like normal birds and other real life creatures that are naturally reverse-jointed, but trying to restrict it to anything else will require constant maintenance and will be pointless in the long term.

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