Touhou Doujin Circle Upkeep

BUR #18874 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

rename redalice -> alice's_emotion
category alice's_emotion -> copyright

Decided to go ahead and try to clean-up the mess that is the Touhou Doujin Music tags and whatnot. Dunno how long this thread is gonna be (and I'll probably have to do upkeep even after cleaning up pool #4125), but here's what I'm going to start this thread off with.

REDALiCE is a music artist, not an artist in the sense that Danbooru considers on-topic (if I'm making sense here). Not to mention if you look through the tag for REDALiCE as it currently stands, notice how it always come with another artist attached. Also, most of the uploads in that tag are cover art for albums REDALiCE has done. Therefore, the tag should be a copyright tag instead.

As for the rename, it's because ALiCE'S EMOTiON is the name of REDALiCE's Touhou music circle, and what people usually think of before REDALiCE. He is heavily associated with that circle, yes, but its the same reason the Akatsuki Records tag is called Akatsuki Records instead of Stack: because you think of the circle, not the most notable artist from said circle first. As REDALiCE does original work under the circle name of HARDCORE TANO*C (and I even found a Vocaloid album cover while searching through the tag), this does present a bit of a conundrum though. There are only a few of non-Touhou uploads in there though, so it's probably going to be an easy fix. I honestly don't know if that should be an alias or a rename, but I chose rename because I can see a handful of (admittedly very unlikely) scenarios where such an alias would be detrimental as opposed to helpful.

Of course, if anyone has any alternate suggestions to my proposals here, please let me know. I want to clean the inconsistent tagging on the circles up, but it still has to be in a way that makes searching for art, both official and fanart, for them easier.

BUR #18876 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

category silver_forest -> copyright

Silver Forest is a music circle. As it currently stands as an artist tag, it is usually paired with a second artist tag (the actual artist), which I feel is a pretty good sign it should probably be a copyright tag instead.

Upvoted so far.

It is worth pointing out the context as to why these tags are artist tags in the first place. Based on the tag history, both were tagged in place of the actual artist because the tagger/uploader didn't know who the actual artist was - basically the same phenomena we see nowadays of people accidentally making artist tags for copyright social media accounts or commissioners.

And I think that's important to take into account. pool #4125 is an old pool, and many of the posts within are definitely from Oldbooru times. I don't know what exactly the situation for this sort of thing was back then, as a fairly new member overall, but it always seemed to me like a fairly easy mistake to make for the exact reason you pointed out. Not to mention, doujin music circles (and not just those who specialize in Touhou), while very fitting for this site, are on the nicher side here. Most people just aren't going to be dedicated to documenting them for easier sorting.

My goal with this thread and general upkeep is to hopefully establish some actual consistency amongst these Touhou circles tagging wise so that we don't get cases like these as often. My biggest concern in this endeavor right now is with upkeep on the wiki pages. REDALiCE's wiki page as it currently stands will need revision in order to fit these changes (assuming they go through), and it wouldn't shock me if there were others too. As someone inexperienced with wiki page writing, I would really like to hear input from those who often do on this.

Not a BUR this time, but a question for a potential future one.

The circles CYTOKINE and ZYTOKINE (latter tag not made yet, but probably will be soon) are effectively the same circle, with ZYTOKINE being the current one for music (though CYTOKINE is still active when it comes to illustrated works, though I'm not sure how important that is tagging wise, leaning towards no). However, they did originally release albums under the CYTOKINE label, which is part of my great tag quest.

So that begs the question: should I just go ahead and alias CYTOKINE to ZYTOKINE? Or should I leave a note on both wiki pages that they are related? What would be the best situation tagging wise? I would like to nip this in the bud before it becomes a problem.

EDIT: Also, what happens when a circle shares a name with an existing copyright (in this case Crest)? I added the qualifier Crest_(music_circle), but I'm not sure what the general protocol for cases like this is.

Maiden_in_Orange said:

Not a BUR this time, but a question for a potential future one.

The circles CYTOKINE and ZYTOKINE (latter tag not made yet, but probably will be soon) are effectively the same circle, with ZYTOKINE being the current one for music (though CYTOKINE is still active when it comes to illustrated works, though I'm not sure how important that is tagging wise, leaning towards no). However, they did originally release albums under the CYTOKINE label, which is part of my great tag quest.

So that begs the question: should I just go ahead and alias CYTOKINE to ZYTOKINE? Or should I leave a note on both wiki pages that they are related? What would be the best situation tagging wise? I would like to nip this in the bud before it becomes a problem.

Both names should be searchable/taggable, at least. As far as music is concerned it's effectively one continuous thing -- and I've seen for example "CYTOKINE Remix" on things released after 2011 -- so an alias is probably more appropriate.

It would get tricky if we had works based on CYTOKINE illustration works, though. It wouldn't really be appropriate to tag ZYTOKINE on those... Maybe a qualifier would be warranted at that point? But we can always rename things so we probably don't need to think about that now.

EDIT: Also, what happens when a circle shares a name with an existing copyright (in this case Crest)? I added the qualifier Crest_(music_circle), but I'm not sure what the general protocol for cases like this is.

According to its wiki and usage, crest absolutely should not have been a copytag. I just changed it to General.
In any case, it's a sufficiently common/ambiguous word that a qualifier makes sense. Adding a qualifier as you did looks correct to me.
If we had any posts of the toothpaste brand, for example, that too should be disambiguated as crest_(toothpaste) for example (and still shouldn't be a copytag unless it had a mascot of which we had art).

Super_Affection said:

Both names should be searchable/taggable, at least. As far as music is concerned it's effectively one continuous thing -- and I've seen for example "CYTOKINE Remix" on things released after 2011 -- so an alias is probably more appropriate.

It would get tricky if we had works based on CYTOKINE illustration works, though. It wouldn't really be appropriate to tag ZYTOKINE on those... Maybe a qualifier would be warranted at that point? But we can always rename things so we probably don't need to think about that now.

Yeah, I was leaning towards an alias on this one. I went into this like with the many "same artist" artist alias requests you and I have both made, but the copyright tag type made me hesitate a little. I'll probably go ahead and put up a BUR to alias them then, as, well, same circle.

I agree that their illustrated works would make things tricky. I'd assume we'd treat this like we do with artists that are also singers, for example, and have a qualifier and differing tag type to distinguish them (in this case artist). But as I haven't seen any of their illustrated works on Danbooru quite yet, I'm not going to sweat too much about it. Worst case scenario, we can always unalias CYTOKINE from ZYTOKINE (assuming that BUR goes through of course) and figure it out from there.

According to its wiki and usage, crest absolutely should not have been a copytag. I just changed it to General.
In any case, it's a sufficiently common/ambiguous word that a qualifier makes sense. Adding a qualifier as you did looks correct to me.
If we had any posts of the toothpaste brand, for example, that too should be disambiguated as crest_(toothpaste) for example (and still shouldn't be a copytag unless it had a mascot of which we had art).

Ooh, I didn't even realize it was a miscategorized tag there! Wonder how that happened there?

Anyway, yeah, adding a qualifier probably would've been a necessary move even without that odd case there, if only to distinguish itself from the other possible Crests out there (like the toothpaste example you cited). Crest on its own is a very ambiguous tag. I think I'm just trying to be cautious here, as the last thing I want to do is accidentally create yet another tagging mess for someone else to clean up here (as well as having never attempted a grand clean-up quest like this before). Thank you so much for your help!

BUR #18925 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create alias cytokine -> zytokine

See above. ZYTOKINE is the circle's current name, so it gets to be the main tag.

Any other thoughts on this, anyone?

BUR #18941 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

category yuuhei-satellite -> copyright
rename yuuhei-satellite -> yuuhei_satellite

Same case as ALiCE'S EMOTiON above, except this time the name change is due to a typo. Yuuhei Satellite has never been referred to with a hyphen to my knowledge. But even if it has been off Danbooru, the variant of their English name with no hyphen is much more common.

(Had to switch the order I did the requests in, because apparently Yuuhei Satellite in the form I want to rename it as doesn't exist according to the system.)

BUR #18945 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

rename iron_attack -> iron_attack!
category iron_attack! -> copyright

I don't really have anything left to say I haven't explained when I first started this thread. Only thing of note is that IRON ATTACK! always comes with an exclamation mark on the end, so I'll go ahead and add it.

yuuhei-satellite arttags:1, silver_forest arttags:1, iron_attack arttags:1 these posts all have only one artist tag. Are they all incorrectly attributed right now?
Also some of these tags like yuuhei-satellite have artist entries and urls. How would we distinguish the copyright from something actually drawn by the person behind the circle? If we consider these in the same vein as commissioners posting other people's artwork, all of the posts coming from those sources should be tagged with second-party source and the artist entries should be deleted.

The bulk update request #18925 (forum #250070) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Maiden_in_Orange said:

BUR #18925 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create alias cytokine -> zytokine

See above. ZYTOKINE is the circle's current name, so it gets to be the main tag.

Any other thoughts on this, anyone?

Please write a brief wiki entry for zytokine in case someone confused about the alias tries to figure out what happened.

nonamethanks said:

yuuhei-satellite arttags:1, silver_forest arttags:1, iron_attack arttags:1 these posts all have only one artist tag. Are they all incorrectly attributed right now?

Yes. I went back and added the correct artists to all of them with the exception of post #5928039, who is credited as NEKO but has no, say, Twitter links or anything that would indicate who they are. I added an artist request to this one and a comment explaining the situation.

Also some of these tags like yuuhei-satellite have artist entries and urls. How would we distinguish the copyright from something actually drawn by the person behind the circle? If we consider these in the same vein as commissioners posting other people's artwork, all of the posts coming from those sources should be tagged with second-party source and the artist entries should be deleted.

You have stated exactly why my biggest concern with these is the wiki pages. As they are currently credited as artists, their wiki pages are currently treated like artist pages. My main issue is that these pages would need serious revising in these cases, and I am not experienced enough with wiki pages to know what to do in these cases (probably gonna look at the more well established iosys and akatsuki records tags for a general idea). I would definitely say we should consider any posts coming from, say, website sources as second-party sources. Another thing to do when cleaning these up (and that's not getting into the ones that are flat-out unsourced).

As for the bigger issue here, my plan was to use these copyright tags only for album covers and any artwork that references a song made by said circle. That way, people can easily find artwork made for and referencing such. There should probably be a note in the artist wiki entries in the cases with more dedicated artists to any given circle (like the banned artist Harano for Akatsuki Records or Hanada Hyou for Diao ye Zong) that they are the main artist for said circle, but not all circles either have a dedicated artist that is a part of them (or just flat out didn't last long enough to say for sure). I'm not entirely sure how enforceable this would be, but I am leaning more towards it being possible than not. Ideally, this is how they should be used.

nonamethanks said:

Please write a brief wiki entry for zytokine in case someone confused about the alias tries to figure out what happened.

Definitely should do that. I'll use ZYTOKINE as my test subject in wiki page writing for these circles.

EDIT: Created one. Please feel free to check over my work here.

Maiden_in_Orange said:

Yes. I went back and added the correct artists to all of them with the exception of post #5928039, who is credited as NEKO but has no, say, Twitter links or anything that would indicate who they are. I added an artist request to this one and a comment explaining the situation.

Challenge accepted: artist #77253

IMO the number of effectively untagged actual artists here strengthens the argument for making all the music circles copytags. That post should've had artist request from the start.

Super_Affection said:

Challenge accepted: artist #77253

IMO the number of effectively untagged actual artists here strengthens the argument for making all the music circles copytags. That post should've had artist request from the start.

Ah, thank you! I knew we had that artist in here somewhere...

And yeah, this just adds even more weight to what I personally feel is already a pretty strong arguments. The mistags here most likely occurred because, with their current state as artist tags, the uploader(s) simply assumed the circle itself was good enough as the artist tag. It's like the many problems with uploading official art, except much worse here because unlike in those cases, doujin circles actively try to credit their artists for the most part. I had no trouble finding out who drew any of the actual artwork in the mistagged posts, and that one exception was more due to not being sure which NEKO we have here drew it. That took at most two minutes to find out for all of them. And these are just the circles I've already brought up here. There is no doubt more of them that need fixing and have their own collection of mistags.

By changing them to copyright tags, we effectively avoid mistags like this from occurring, and are able to enforce actually crediting the artists responsible for these often gorgeous album covers. And also, all the fanart will have their own tags for people to sort through at their leisure, just like with IOSYS as an easy example.

The bulk update request #18874 (forum #249872) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #18876 (forum #249875) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #18941 (forum #250134) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #18945 (forum #250142) has been approved by @nonamethanks.