Donmai

Renaming belly

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AngryZapdos

BUR #15196 has been rejected.

create alias belly -> slightly_plump_stomach
deprecate belly

Unsurprisingly (with its name being a synonym for stomach), the belly tag is being constantly yet unintentionally vandalised by users who often have no idea both tags exist, let alone how they're different. topic #21334 attempted to fix this by renaming it to plump_stomach, but was bogged down by concerns that belly is actually only for "somewhat plump stomachs" and that the new name would encourage users to tag it on characters who had more than just a slight belly (even though this had already been happening for years).

Belly needs to be renamed and deprecated ASAP. The longer we wait, the more mistags we'll have to clean up; even browsing just the first two pages I found post #6073080, post #6049313, post #6048552 and post #6046564. (I don't really care what it's renamed to; I only chose slightly_plump_stomach because of the issues people had with the previous BUR.)

Supplementary issues with belly

As a side note, since belly is only for "somewhat plump stomachs", some other issues arise. Stuff like post #6055830 and post #6037226 routinely come up when searching the tag, which could easily be someone adding it to any stomach that isn't completely flat - and with post #3092287 listed in the belly wiki as a prime example of the level of stomach required, this makes complete sense. Comparing it to that example, one could probably make the case that a good half of the stomach -belly search qualifies for belly.

Additionally, according to the wiki there's currently no tag for moderately plump stomachs. belly's wiki and examples indicate it's only for slightly plump stomachs, while big_belly's wiki states it's only for large stomachs like those found on fat and pregnant characters. As such, moderately plump stomachs are stuck in a kind of limbo, being tagged belly, big_belly or just plump on the whim of the uploader

While it's not the focus of this initial BUR, it's important to note these other shortcoming of the belly tag. It's in need of either a massive cleanup and a sister tag for moderately plump stomachs, or a wiki rewrite to expand its definition to include moderately plump stomachs.

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Toctoc bipface Mayhem-Chan Red Terror Toks EvergreenNights Nacha Veraducks Unbreakable DeusExCalamus Login to view mortalkombachan jay19
AngryZapdos

Nacha said:

Meh, because I don't like the proposed name. But I'm fine with a rename for belly.
I also don't have a better name for it.

What's important is preventing hundreds of future mistags, not spending another year coming up with the perfect name over three future forum topics. The proposed name is a bit on the nose, but it's at least better than belly and I'll take that any day over a tag that's constantly being poisoned. If people are really concerned about finding the perfect name for this tag, then we can just alias it again later when we figure that out.

An upvote for this BUR is not so much a vote for slightly_plump_stomach, but rather a vote against keeping belly.

In any case, it can't be worse than tied_up_(nonsexual).

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nonamethanks

BUR #15199 has been rejected.

deprecate belly

I think the problem here is the tag itself, not its name. Why do we need belly when we have plump? What does "somewhat plump" mean? I vote for just deprecating belly itself, because it's just padding when we already have stomach, plump, midriff, pregnant, big belly and the various combinations of these tags.

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Nacha bipface Kommandant HyphenSam Immersed Mr-Saturn Unbreakable Veraducks user 893647 The Bob Toks Mayhem-Chan MyrMindservant
bipface

(upvoting both proposals since i don't really mind either way, though i'm not sure whether this alias+deprecate is actually valid?)

re. Supplementary issues

Additionally, according to the wiki there's currently no tag for moderately plump stomachs

i'd argue we perhaps don't need that level of granularity, the reason being that it can be quite hard to gauge the level visually,
with other features we have fairly reliable objective guidelines for 'measuring' (e.g. small/medium/large breasts based on the diameter relative to head or body size, short/medium/long hair based on how far down the neck it reaches),
with the belly you're trying to evaluate 'extra' volume over a supposed normal size which may require some metaphorical 'xray-vision' to visualise, may be confused by an unhelpful camera angle, may be confused by having a naturally wide torso, etc.
i'd say unless someone can come up with some really solid criteria for these categories, we should keep it simple for now

Updated

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Toks

nonamethanks said:

I think the problem here is the tag itself, not its name. Why do we need belly when we have plump? What does "somewhat plump" mean? I vote for just deprecating belly itself, because it's just padding when we already have stomach, plump, midriff, pregnant, big belly and the various combinations of these tags.

I feel like it's worth having a tag specifically for images where the stomach is visible, and not huge, but it does have a round curvature to it (not muscle), like post #5138700, post #2090988, or post #2904200. This is a visually distinct feature so I don't think users should need to rely on combining a bunch of vaguely related tags and hoping they find images with it.
Japanese-language sites like Pixiv and Nico Seiga tag it as イカ腹 (ikubara) - although that tag is used nearly exclusively for loli art. Unsure if they have a tag for non-loli bellies.

Also, while belly is currently a mess with many false positives, all of the combinations of the tags you just listed are even worse at searching for this concept than belly itself is.
plump midriff excludes nude people and clothed stomachs. big belly and pregnant give stomachs that are way too big.
The only one that comes somewhat close is plump stomach, but the problems with that search are that 1. plump includes lots of false positives (e.g. a character's body is plump but their stomach is flat, muscular, or fat) and 2. stomach excludes lots of false negatives (85% of belly posts don't currently have stomach tagged).

I don't know what a good English name for this tag would be either so I'm fine with the OP suggestion, although I believe the first line needs to be "rename" instead of "create alias"?

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Unbreakable

Toks said:

I feel like it's worth having a tag specifically for images where the stomach is visible, and not huge, but it does have a round curvature to it (not muscle), like post #5138700, post #2090988, or post #2904200. This is a visually distinct feature so I don't think users should need to rely on combining a bunch of vaguely related tags and hoping they find images with it.
Japanese-language sites like Pixiv and Nico Seiga tag it as イカ腹 (ikubara) - although that tag is used nearly exclusively for loli art. Unsure if they have a tag for non-loli bellies.

Also, while belly is currently a mess with many false positives, all of the combinations of the tags you just listed are even worse at searching for this concept than belly itself is.
plump midriff excludes nude people and clothed stomachs. big belly and pregnant give stomachs that are way too big.
The only one that comes somewhat close is plump stomach, but the problems with that search are that 1. plump includes lots of false positives (e.g. a character's body is plump but their stomach is flat, muscular, or fat) and 2. stomach excludes lots of false negatives (85% of belly posts don't currently have stomach tagged).

I don't know what a good English name for this tag would be either so I'm fine with the OP suggestion, although I believe the first line needs to be "rename" instead of "create alias"?

We do have pool #3683, not sure if that's what you are looking for?

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Toks

Unbreakable said:

We do have pool #3683, not sure if that's what you are looking for?

That does seem related, thanks. Though looking through the posts, I get the impression it's more for images where a woman's entire body is curvy (with wide hips and large breasts), and her belly is also curvy. There's basically no loli or male images there.
Contrast with イカ腹 on Pixiv which doesn't really overlap that pool since it's almost all loli.

To phrase it another way, the purpose of belly as I see it is to tag just this particular size and shape of the stomach itself, regardless of whether the rest of the body it's attached to is plump, curvy, loli, muscular, or whatever else. Then people can combine it with one of those body type tags if they want to see the belly on a certain type of person (e.g. belly curvy).

If it helps, I created a favgroup with 100 examples of the type of stomach I'm talking about, including a handful of different body types: favgroup #20896

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