Posted under Tags
BUR #14015 has been rejected.
remove implication at4 -> rocket_launcher
create implication at4 -> gun
AT4 is not considered a rocket launcher as the explosive warhead is not propelled by a rocket motor. It is not exactly a recoilless rifle, but rather a recoilless gun, as the launcher is smoothbore and not rifled. See the Wiki(pedia) page for more details.
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I think this wouldn't be a good change even if "technically correct" because in practice it's held aimed and fired like a single use "rocket launcher" and in the heads of most people it's a rocket launcher. Most video games also list it under launchers, etc.
The "problem" if there is one is more so with the name of the tag being rocket_launcher rather than just launcher.
Astolfo said:
I think this wouldn't be a good change even if "technically correct" because in practice it's held aimed and fired like a single use "rocket launcher" and in the heads of most people it's a rocket launcher. Most video games also list it under launchers, etc.
The "problem" if there is one is more so with the name of the tag being rocket_launcher rather than just launcher.
It's a misconception. For me it's like misleading video game depiction of AK-47, while visually is clear that those are AKMs. Notice the ribbed lines on its dust cover and rivets on receiver body. Wish this site had recoilless gun tag instead of recoilless rifle.
So AT4 can be correctly implied into recoilless gun.
For God's sake, I just don't want people believe on weapon-related misconceptions.
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The recoilless rifle tag includes recoilless guns (per the wiki), just like the Wikipedia article for recoilless rifles, even though this isn't a rifle. They are mostly visually indistinguishable, anyway, similar to rocket launchers and recoilless """rifles""".
I would definitely add "imply at4 -> recoilless rifle" to this BUR or the next one. No real need for a third tag or a RR tag rename; people get the idea.
Edit: The BUR was edited, albeit to the RR tag that doesn't exist yet. Tempting to change mine to a meh vote, but whatever.
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BUR #15014 has been rejected.
create implication at4 -> recoilless_rifle
Talulah said:
Please do not change BURs after over a month of voting, especially for BURs that have already had many votes. If you come up with a better idea later on then they should be placed in a new BUR otherwise it becomes impossible to tell what people actually voted on. Why would you downvote this? We already have an exclusive tag for recoilless gun.
Okay, my apologies. I thought making another reply would be redundant or spammy. It was not me who added this idea. Thank you for your feedback.
LQ said:
I would definitely add "imply at4 -> recoilless rifle" to this BUR or the next one. No real need for a third tag or a RR tag rename; people get the idea.
Thank you for the brilliant suggestion! (^_^)
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BUR #15016 has been rejected.
remove implication at4 -> rocket_launcher
create implication at4 -> recoilless_rifle
As World Funeral has stated before the AT4 is not a rocket launcher because of the way it fires it's warhead. Because it not propelled by a rocket, it does not meet the criteria in both the real world and Danbooru's wiki definition of a Rocket Launcher
I do not agree with notion of creating a tag specifically for the AT4 as it is the only well known example of a Recoilless Anti-Tank weapon that has a smoothbore and not rifling.
It may not be completely accurate but Recoilless Rifle and Recoilless Gun are synonymous with each other so the AT4 should implicate that it is a Recoilless Rifle and not a Rocket Launcher
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Agreed with Astolfo, this BUR reeks of "akshually, technikally". If anything we should alias recoilless rifle or create an umbrella tag for launchers, because having 2 separate tags for something that are visually identical and that the majority of people don't really care about is dumb and only bound to cause more problems in the future.
Mexiguy said:
Agreed with Astolfo, this BUR reeks of "akshually, technikally". If anything we should alias recoilless rifle or create an umbrella tag for launchers, because having 2 separate tags for something that are visually identical and that the majority of people don't really care about is dumb and only bound to cause more problems in the future.
I do not know how I would feel about having a launcher umbrella because that would also encompass the grenade launchers which are visually distinct and serve a different purpose from the Anti-Tank launchers.
In a similar vein, you have two seperate tags for automatic rifles, although they are bigger tags, for Assault_Rifle and Battle_Rifle even though they are visible similar and are usually labeled as Assault Rifles in games.
Kommandant said:
I do not know how I would feel about having a launcher umbrella because that would also encompass the grenade launchers which are visually distinct and serve a different purpose from the Anti-Tank launchers.
In a similar vein, you have two seperate tags for automatic rifles, although they are bigger tags, for Assault_Rifle and Battle_Rifle even though they are visible similar and are usually labeled as Assault Rifles in games.
I'm strongly in favour of keeping recoilless rifle as a separate tag, for the same reason we have both assault rifle and battle rifle! The amount of users against this BUR is surprisingly high, regardless of technicality and legitimate reason. I hate it when people identify type of real world weapons incorrectly.
Saying AT4 is a rocket launcher is like saying that sailor dress is a serafuku.
Edit: Any chance of resurrection and another reconsideration for automatically rejected BURs?
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The bulk update request #14015 (forum #228931) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
World_Funeral said:
The amount of users against this BUR is surprisingly high, regardless of technicality and legitimate reason. I hate it when people identify type of real world weapons incorrectly.
I know I'm probably ruffling more feathers than it's worth, but...
I've noticed a trend these past few months of arms and armor folk trying to enforce technicality in tagging. These BURs fail for the same reason:
They're non-visual technicalities.
Although we borrow some organizational and methodology-in-wiki techniques from them, Danbooru is not Wikipedia. We are not academically cataloging things based on concept and classification. For example, when I tag something harpy it doesn't imply european mythology, western mythology, greek mythology, and avian all at once as some sites do. We laugh at those sites. Nobody searches european mythology - it's not even a tag because of how useless it would be for searching - and wants pics of a bird girl jackin' a dude off with her talons. well maybe me every other tuesday
For an armor based example, take a look at what and why I did forum #185214 way back when. Approach tagging from the mentality of "how does this help someone with a cursory-at-best knowledge of firearms find this image", not "how many kudos on /k/ will I get".
Veraducks said:
I know I'm probably ruffling more feathers than it's worth, but...
I've noticed a trend these past few months of arms and armor folk trying to enforce technicality in tagging. These BURs fail for the same reason:
They're non-visual technicalities.Although we borrow some organizational and methodology-in-wiki techniques from them, Danbooru is not Wikipedia. We are not academically cataloging things based on concept and classification. For example, when I tag something harpy it doesn't imply european mythology, western mythology, greek mythology, and avian all at once as some sites do. We laugh at those sites. Nobody searches european mythology - it's not even a tag because of how useless it would be for searching - and wants pics of a bird girl jackin' a dude off with her talons.
well maybe me every other tuesdayFor an armor based example, take a look at what and why I did forum #185214 way back when. Approach tagging from the mentality of "how does this help someone with a cursory-at-best knowledge of firearms find this image", not "how many kudos on /k/ will I get".
While I do get your point and I will keep this in mind for future BURs, it doesn't hurt to have tags to be accurate when possible. Which is why I don't understand why you disagree with voting to have the AT4 to implication recoilless_rifle instead of rocket_launcher. You already have the Carl Gustaf there and it is also a shoulder-mounted Anti Tank weapon, just like the AT4
As for the "cursory-at-best knowledge", what is the point of having knife and dagger or assault_rifle and battle_rifle separate when not only do they have visually similar features but people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between them without more knowledge behind why they are categorized the way they are.
Kommandant said:
While I do get your point and I will keep this in mind for future BURs, it doesn't hurt to have tags to be accurate when possible. Which is why I don't understand why you disagree with voting to have the AT4 to implication recoilless_rifle instead of rocket_launcher. You already have the Carl Gustaf there and it is also a shoulder-mounted Anti Tank weapon, just like the AT4
As for the "cursory-at-best knowledge", what is the point of having knife and dagger or assault_rifle and battle_rifle separate when not only do they have visually similar features but people aren't going to be able to tell the difference between them without more knowledge behind why they are categorized the way they are.
Both assault rifle and battle rifle imply rifle so so non-gun nerds looking for "pictures of anime girls holding a rifle" can just look for 1girl rifle, and if they want pictures of a charaacter holding a specific gun they can use the specific tag for the weapon. Daggers are visually distinguishable from other knifes because they are usually double-edged and dagger implies knife anyway, so there are no searchability problems.
If someone is looking for "animu girls holding rocket launchers" and stuff like post #2100880 doesn't show in the results because some nerd went "akshully neither of them is a rocket launcher, one is a recoiless gun and the other is an rocket-propelled grenade launcher" then we have a problem.
As for the Carl Gustaf it seems like it got snuck into a multiple-tag BUR (forum #158881) that no one really paid attention and got approved with only 2 votes.
Mexiguy said:
Both assault rifle and battle rifle imply rifle so so non-gun nerds looking for "pictures of anime girls holding a rifle" can just look for 1girl rifle, and if they want pictures of a charaacter holding a specific gun they can use the specific tag for the weapon. Daggers are visually distinguishable from other knifes because they are usually double-edged and dagger implies knife anyway, so there are no searchability problems.
If someone is looking for "animu girls holding rocket launchers" and stuff like post #2100880 doesn't show in the results because some nerd went "akshully neither of them is a rocket launcher, one is a recoiless gun and the other is an rocket-propelled grenade launcher" then we have a problem.
As for the Carl Gustaf it seems like it got snuck into a multiple-tag BUR (forum #158881) that no one really paid attention and got approved with only 2 votes.
post #2100880 would populate because the RPG-7 is a rocket launcher. The warhead, a grenade in this case, is rocket propelled It's even in the name.
If need be, there could be a tag created for recoilless weapons that would have both Rocket Launchers and Recoilless Rifles since they work on the same principle (i.e. expelling propellent out the back of the tube to mitigate recoil)
Kommandant said:
post #2100880 would populate because the RPG-7 is a rocket launcher. The warhead, a grenade in this case, is rocket propelled It's even in the name.
If need be, there could be a tag created for recoilless weapons that would have both Rocket Launchers and Recoilless Rifles since they work on the same principle (i.e. expelling propellent out the back of the tube to mitigate recoil)
How about aliasing recoilless rifle into recoilless launcher instead, which covers more subtypes?
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Kommandant said:
post #2100880 would populate because the RPG-7 is a rocket launcher. The warhead, a grenade in this case, is rocket propelled It's even in the name.
If need be, there could be a tag created for recoilless weapons that would have both Rocket Launchers and Recoilless Rifles since they work on the same principle (i.e. expelling propellent out the back of the tube to mitigate recoil)
It just an example of how tag literalism based on technicalities can negatively impact searchability, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, although you know damn well that someone even more pedantic could just come one day and try to split RPGs from "true rockets" and ATGMs and say, remove rocket launcher from fgm-148 javelin posts because "technikally it is a guided missile, not a rocket"
The point is that danbooru has to mantain a balance between real-world accuracy and taggability/searchability. Yes, technically an ascot and a cravat are different garments, but the average weeb who isn't versed in 17th - 19th century neckwear vcouldn't tell the difference so finding a character based on their neckwear became a coin toss. Yes silver hair should have been a very straightforward thing to tag (just grey hair with a metalic shine to it) but it became a nightmare because the shininess threshold was entirely subjective so again it became a coin toss. And yes, rocket launchers, recoiles guns/rifles, ATGM launchers and MANPADs are different things, but the average person looking for "animu girl holding a bazooka" doesn't really care and we better have a way to find all the relevant posts without having to use an arcane tag combination like "1girl (rocket launcher or recoilless rifle or recoilles_gun or missile_launcher)" (that free users can't even search for).
One possiblity would be turning rocket launcher into an umbrella tag for all projectile launcher things and have recoiless_gun, recoiless_rifle and so on imply it (even if it is technically not correct), so that regular people can still get the search results they are expecting while gun autists can keep having their increasingly granular tagging circlejerck.
Mexiguy said:
It just an example of how tag literalism based on technicalities can negatively impact searchability, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, although you know damn well that someone even more pedantic could just come one day and try to split RPGs from "true rockets" and ATGMs and say, remove rocket launcher from fgm-148 javelin posts because "technikally it is a guided missile, not a rocket"
The point is that danbooru has to mantain a balance between real-world accuracy and taggability/searchability. Yes, technically an ascot and a cravat are different garments, but the average weeb who isn't versed in 17th - 19th century neckwear vcouldn't tell the difference so finding a character based on their neckwear became a coin toss. Yes silver hair should have been a very straightforward thing to tag (just grey hair with a metalic shine to it) but it became a nightmare because the shininess threshold was entirely subjective so again it became a coin toss. And yes, rocket launchers, recoiles guns/rifles, ATGM launchers and MANPADs are different things, but the average person looking for "animu girl holding a bazooka" doesn't really care and we better have a way to find all the relevant posts without having to use an arcane tag combination like "1girl (rocket launcher or recoilless rifle or recoilles_gun or missile_launcher)" (that free users can't even search for).
One possiblity would be turning rocket launcher into an umbrella tag for all projectile launcher things and have recoiless_gun, recoiless_rifle and so on imply it (even if it is technically not correct), so that regular people can still get the search results they are expecting while gun autists can keep having their increasingly granular tagging circlejerck.
It's a piss poor example when you try to say someone wouldnt wouldn't be able pull up a RPG when searching for rocket launchers when an RPG is a rocket launcher.
I wholeheartedly disagree with implying recoilless rifles to rocket launchers because not all recoilless guns are shoulder-mounted and not going to fit what people assume to be a rocket launcher. Not to mention with rocket_launcher being an umbrella tag for all "projectile launchers" Grenade Launchers would have to be aliased too.
