Bigoted admin saying a hateful comment? It's not cool to be a transphobe, dude. This is your forum, you should know that. Even with your silly analogies.
plep said:
that's almost certainly because you fundamentally politically disagree with me
Are you folks physically incapable of coming up with even a single counterargument that does NOT involve "reeeee transphobe bigot politics buzzwords buzzwords"? Not only does this get us nowhere, it also won't get YOU anything remotely close to what you want.
For somebody who is not against trans people, you sure are hesitant in accepting her as a girl, right? You'd expect for crossdressers (not a protected group of people, they only dress femininely despite the majority still being cis men) to at least respect and sympathize to trans women everywhere, but not being a bigot doesn't fit you in when you got out of the way to call her an "it" or "he" despite what you already know. And, of course, you're pulling the grooming card, what's not to like.
I mentioned grooming because it legitimately reads that way. I need to be clear, I'm not going after a trans person here, I'm going after what I perceive as poor writing. Consider that there was already a trans allegory with Bridget that is lost now. This character was AFAB only to come out as... a girl....you see what I'm getting at?
And no, I'm not hesitant in accepting a trans person who comes out, this is just part of the context of the argument that when I refer to past Bridget I still think of a male. I realise that's an incredibly rude thing to do to a real life trans person because you are digging up their past when they wouldn't want that, but I'm talking about a fictional character with a unique history of identifying as male despite what society told them. Also I never meant to refer to anyone as "it", that's plain dehumanising and it is nowhere in my text. I refer to them as neutral they, he, or she. This is a two-way street and I feel a valid male identity was invalidated the same as a person who supports her as she.
Also, what makes crossdressers "not a protected group of people"? They go through the same abuse and share a lot of routines trans people do and aren't socially accepted regardless of whether they're happy with being called he or she, the similarities are deep. Believe it or not they don't have a bathroom to go to either, for the same exact reasons (being targeted). Forgive me for getting antsy, but I'm talking in good faith here and something like that sounds plain wrong, along with my other claims being blown out of proportion like the "it" one.
Not everyone here is a bigot, some of us are trying to disarm a very difficult situation and explain our views.
I mentioned grooming because it legitimately reads that way. I need to be clear, I'm not going after a trans person here, I'm going after what I perceive as poor writing. Consider that there was already a trans allegory with Bridget that is lost now. This character was AFAB only to come out as... a girl....you see what I'm getting at?
Bridget was not AFAB. At no point did Bridget ever believe she was born a girl, nor did her parents raise her as one. They only presented her as one in public so she wouldn't be killed by their village. Bridget fully identified as male until recently, and following XX fully lives openly as one until Strive.
The only thing lost with Strive is that she's no longer a boy that dresses like a girl, she's now just a girl that dresses like a girl.
Are you folks physically incapable of coming up with even a single counterargument that does NOT involve "reeeee transphobe bigot politics buzzwords buzzwords"? Not only does this get us nowhere, it also won't get YOU anything remotely close to what you want.
I've made my argument, albeit pretty quickly, here, as well as at the start of my other post. To reiterate, I think post Strive Bridget should be tagged as 1girl and support the creation of transgender or transgender (mtf) tags for search refinement and blacklists and whatever. But there's no denying that the chief divide here is political, and that's not a problem that's gonna get argued away. Bear in mind, I do think some of the people here are being blatantly transphobic, but I don't really care about telling them that or lecturing them about it. I'm interested in a decision actually being made, which is never going to happen if we keep letting the argument get stuck in place every time an obviously politically motivated user masquerading as just another apolitical citizen with "concerns" shows up.
Bridget was not AFAB. At no point did Bridget ever believe she was born a girl, nor did her parents raise her as one. They only presented her as one in public so she wouldn't be killed by their village. Bridget fully identified as male until recently, and following XX fully lives openly as one until Strive.
The only thing lost with Strive is that she's no longer a boy that dresses like a girl, she's now just a girl that dresses like a girl.
I think my argument carries the same weight given they were forced to live and present this way socially and have had to correct people over it, since social dysphoria is a real thing. Like I said, allegory.
Calling other users you don't agree with as "transphobic", "bigot" will only increase the chances of the forum being being locked again. And I doubt this debate will get a third chance. If you are arguing with someone, try to focus more on the argument rather than the person. Remember, this isn't the real life and this is not about real people gender issues. This is an anime imageboard, and the discussion is about the ideal approach to tag a certain character.
From my viewpoint, I'm skeptical about tagging Bridget as 1girl, specially due to the scenarios pointed out by Evazion, but I'm not against some kind of revival of the transgender tag as a way for users to search trans characters, something like what blindVigil suggested on forum #218990 (which I consider, from the two whole forums regarding Bridget's gender drama, the most objective and rational approach).
If we decide the girl and boy tags are used for sex and not gender, we should probably alias tags like 1girl and 1boy to 1female and 1male to reflect that. That would make it more clear it's not meant to determine the gender of a character. We already do this with other tags, like male focus or futa with female.
The boy and girl tags have dual purpose of expressing both gender and sex of a character. Unless we split these two purposes to different sets of tags, I don't see a way of reconciling this in a way that fulfills both purposes at once.
If we decide on bringing back the transgender tag, we should probably lay out the scope. The body of a post-op, post-HRT trans character may indistinguishable from a cis character, and the body of a newhalf can be indistinguishable from a futanari. Because of this I'd prefer a tag in between male and newhalf, when a character is determined trans but before breasts have developed. I don't know what this tag would be named, but I do think it could be helpful to have.
First off, I don't like the change as a fan of the character. Obviously not against trans people, but against how this 1) reads for someone assigned female at birth, whose entire shtick was fighting against it, and just having it announced as what they want like it's ok now. It carries a very icky "groomerish" tone to it given how they were raised, and 2) sends a dangerous, oft-repeated message about acceptance where to be feminine as a guy you must be a transgirl. It's just as unhealthy, and takes representation from androgynous men (who are already mistreated for similar reasons in trans communities) and moves it to totally trans people.
You're fooling absolutely nobody with these strawmen. Go read the Developer's Backyard for your first point, and please talk to actual trans people for the second, because that's just flat-out not true. You'll live because you have one less otokonoko out of like the 10-to-30 majorly famous femboy characters in anime and games out there.
You're fooling absolutely nobody with these strawmen. Go read the Developer's Backyard for your first point, and please talk to actual trans people for the second, because that's just flat-out not true. You'll live because you have one less otokonoko out of like the 10-to-30 majorly famous femboy characters in anime and games out there.
I'm sorry but no? You're implying that I'm pretending to be GNC to give false weight to the other side of the debate, do I have to show receipts of my dresses? Share pics of my weighted safety razor which is the only way someone like me can get a proper smooth face with the least pain? List my favourite skincare products? Link the trans fashion and beauty guides I do follow? Here, organised by body part:
I do speak to two trans friends btw, but I'm certain if I had brought that up people would have treated it like "some of my best friends are black" fallacy. This is exactly what I was talking about in my first comment about how it's difficult to be androgynous while still being treated decently in trans circles, two people have come at me with this attitude now. I'm sorry to the mods for this mess I've caused, I'll try and not respond to more comments like this.
Pretty sure they challenged your argument, not the validity of your status as GNC. Please keep this discussion about Bridget, even more preferably about tagging her. No one cares how you feel about the new development or how much of a transphobe you are or are not. No one cares about your political leaning or what you think everyone else's political leaning is. This is a discussion about Danbooru and how best to tag a certain character.
That said, I do want to address the absurdity of the argument that this pushes the narrative that a feminine male can only be accepted if they identify as trans.
First of all, literally no one in the series ever refuses to accept Bridget as whatever gender they choose to identify as. In XX, the most anyone expresses at the revelation that Bridget isn't a girl is surprise, and no one pushes the issue beyond that. Some people were even able to correctly identify her as male without having to be told. In Strive, no one tells Bridget she has to be a girl. Ky couldn't care less, and Goldlewis doesn't tell her anything more than to be whatever makes her happy. He's perfectly fine treating her as a boy if that's what she wanted.
The only person in the entire series hung up on Bridget's gender, is Bridget. First it was proving she can be successful as a boy, then it was realizing that being a boy was good for the village and her parents but wasn't good for herself. She was already accepted and even respected by everyone, except for herself.
Are we gonna be able to reach a consensus at this pace? I believe this is the third time we circled back to talking about personal interpretations of the story, and every time people who pretend to be neutral, "i don't really care about the new development", come and show us how much they care by sharing their views. I believe that in this situation is better to follow what the other posters have said, bring back the transgender tag and use it on Bridget, this way we can still kept the 1boy tag, without angering or creating inconveniences for those who want the transgender identity to be present on the tags.
Or
We could wait until the dust set off, and see which interpretation becomes the dominant one and go with that. I mean, three months from now this discourse will have mostly faded, and we will be able to see what most people see the character as, and what brings them to this site. I know that this idea isn't pleasing to a lot of people here, but on the case of Bridget it could help, i mean, time and time again in this discussion the possible annoyance of some user was used as argument, both in favor and against the change, and respecting canon isn't exactly something that this site seems too concerned about, we don't waste time going around tagging big breasted fanart of flat chested characters "small tits in canon" or going to NTR posts and tagging "lovey dovey in canon", hell, we don't do that even with characters in similar circumstances to Bridget, Da Vince (FGO) and Cagliostro (Granblue) are both characters who were born in male bodies, but later came to adopt a female identity and appearance, this isn't reflected on the tags of the artworks posted here, so why is canon so important here?
And to address the point of a discussion here, "but what about the message we could be sending with this, if it's girl/boy, we're gonna erase representation", does Danbooru really need to take a stand on this? Does the site really need to change tags, ignore the convenience of user, for the sake of sending a message, which won't matter much when people eventually move on to the next big discourse? It would make more sense to direct those complaints at the artists, players, fans, or even at Daisuke, it's not the site fault if people still see the character as a boy or changed their view and started to see them as a girl.
Pretty sure they challenged your argument, not the validity of your status as GNC. Please keep this discussion about Bridget, even more preferably about tagging her. No one cares how you feel about the new development or how much of a transphobe you are or are not. No one cares about your political leaning or what you think everyone else's political leaning is. This is a discussion about Danbooru and how best to tag a certain character.
It sounded like I was personally being called out in that line about strawmen, that's why I said what I said.
That said, I do want to address the absurdity of the argument that this pushes the narrative that a feminine male can only be accepted if they identify as trans.
And I didn't mean this within guilty gear obviously, I meant the implication to real life people who care about this sort of thing which arguments like this tend to swerve into a lot. I realise that isn't what this thread is for, I was just trying to explain my view on it preemptively. Anyway I'm really sorry for all that, staying on-topic.
I vote pre-strive 1boy, strive 1girl, unless someone has a better solution. Or maybe beyond bridget there needs to be a specfic tag for trans characters that still treats them as their gender, like a 1transgirl tag for example.
It sounded like I was personally being called out in that line about strawmen, that's why I said what I said.
You are being called out, for regurgitating the same "groomer" arguments made by people that clearly have zero knowledge of Bridget's character arc in Strive.
And for claiming that somehow GNC men are being run out of trans communities. Which doesn't happen except maybe among some group of ten 14-year-olds on TikTok, but nobody is mistreated 'just' for being GNC, given that trans people are probably one of the most GNC demographics out there.
If we decide the girl and boy tags are used for sex and not gender, we should probably alias tags like 1girl and 1boy to 1female and 1male to reflect that. That would make it more clear it's not meant to determine the gender of a character. We already do this with other tags, like male focus or futa with female.
The boy and girl tags have dual purpose of expressing both gender and sex of a character. Unless we split these two purposes to different sets of tags, I don't see a way of reconciling this in a way that fulfills both purposes at once.
If we decide on bringing back the transgender tag, we should probably lay out the scope. The body of a post-op, post-HRT trans character may indistinguishable from a cis character, and the body of a newhalf can be indistinguishable from a futanari. Because of this I'd prefer a tag in between male and newhalf, when a character is determined trans but before breasts have developed. I don't know what this tag would be named, but I do think it could be helpful to have.
No need to change how tagging works because of a single example of a really bad "trans" story. Usually authors know better than to do things like these with their characters, so it's not like there will ever be many cases like this. For all we know, Bridget is officially only a girl after a certain point in the story, and hasn't "transitioned" at all. Plus, if over time people still prefer to draw Bridget as a boy, then it would be wrong for the images as a girl. I sincerely doubt the character will ever appear in any GG game again because the story and characterization were essentially killed. However if Bridget does appear again, and is more recognizable as a woman rather than the same otokonoko of always, then the tagging would have to be different.
Also frankly, no other other art site I've seen has changed the tagging because it's known that it'd invalidate the entire way the system works.
No need to change how tagging works because of a single example of a really bad "trans" story. Usually authors know better than to do things like these with their characters, so it's not like there will ever be many cases like this. For all we know, Bridget is officially only a girl after a certain point in the story, and hasn't "transitioned" at all. Plus, if over time people still prefer to draw Bridget as a boy, then it would be wrong for the images as a girl. I sincerely doubt the character will ever appear in any GG game again because the story and characterization were essentially killed. However if Bridget does appear again, and is more recognizable as a woman rather than the same otokonoko of always, then the tagging would have to be different.
Also frankly, no other other art site I've seen has changed the tagging because it's known that it'd invalidate the entire way the system works.
the problem is, and i'll keep bringing this up, pictures on this site that very clearly depict Bridget as a girl (aka things with trans flags) are still being tagged as 1boy. i don't think think there's an issue if an artist very clearly uses the otoko no ko, but it's the fact that trans girl Bridget posts are being tagged as 1boy is the problem, for me at least. because the tags are gendered rather than biological, there is a problem with how strive-era Bridget is handled here. since she is (as far as we know) pre-op.
also i don't know if this was your intent, but when you mentioned other art sites, i went to check out some other booru sites to see how they tagged Bridget out of curiosity. my results are such: Safebooru: 1girl on strive pics, 1boy on pre-strive pics... most of the time, i have seen some xx-era pics tagged as 1girl. Sankaku and Gelbooru: 1boy everywhere unless genderswap, like this site currently. Zerochan: tagged as "boy" everywhere, even on a picture that's tagged as "transgender" on pixiv and with a noticable bust. yande.re: there's only one strive-era bridget pic, but there's a point to make about it not being tagged as "trap" while the last pic uploaded over 2 years ago was. shuushuu: same thing as yande.re except it's the opposite, the only strive-era pic has a "crossdressing" tag
sorry if it's a little random haha, but i was curious of the results.
It is beyond goofy to have rules enforcing tagging images as male focus when they themselves spell out that the subject is a girl All that this seems to achieve is having a policy where only NSFW or exaggerated proportions are ever going to be tagged as the artist intends
