Posted under Tags
This topic has been locked.
g6672D said:
They did not grow a pussy for this game, and certainly not during an ending. Read up the reply chain.
Oh? Did you magically transport yourself into Guilty Gear Strive and pull down their pants? No! Nothing has been confirmed one way or the other, right? Maybe this one character has a different gender than the rest.
g6672D said:
They did not grow a pussy for this game, and certainly not during an ending. Read up the reply chain.
I was responding to Kommandant's post specifically, but in any case, whether a character has a pussy or not is mostly irrelevant to how we use gender tags.
Maiyau said:
What do we do in this case?
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/5694822?q=bridget_%28guilty_gear%29
Well, alternate breast size is apropos, plus newhalf. Some people are using genderswap (mtf) for when Bridget has larger breasts, but if GGS Bridget is changed to a girl universally, it will likely stop being appropriate to do so.
evazion said:
Let me ask you this: how would you tag post #49690, post #1421805, and post #2257199?
All of those are old and obviously meant to be either shocking or to draw the ire of the viewer.
The last two involve the artists inventing new bodies/looks for the character such that they are unrecognizable as Bridget outside of the costume.
I'd tag post #1421805 as 1boy and some sort of genderswap/alternate body. (I don't really do tagging, so there might be more valid choices I'm unaware of)
post #2257199 looks to involve some sort of timeskip or transformation, so there's probably some rules I'm unaware of, but the focus is still on a "male" Bridget so the existing tags are fine? If genderswap process pics would tag both a male and female side as 1boy and 1girl, then the same could apply here? Without being able to read the JP both on the image and in the commentary, it's hard for me to make a judgment call.
post #49690 would be 1girl. Is there a pool or tag for like, irony or images that have "aged poorly"? cause this one would fit. Maybe some sort of (new?) tag for text that's meant to troll or irritate the viewer?
Obviously the implementation would be messy at times since she's been around for a couple decades, but it's important to actually decide on how to properly treat trans characters ASAP so that there's less work in the future.
sadodere said:
Oh? Did you magically transport yourself into Guilty Gear Strive and pull down their pants? No! Nothing has been confirmed one way or the other, right? Maybe this one character has a different gender than the rest.
No, did you?
feline_lump said:
I was responding to Kommandant's post specifically, but in any case, whether a character has a pussy or not is mostly irrelevant to how we use gender tags.
It's also irrelevant to claim a magical pussy with the two decades of history of a trap.
DeinGott said:
Your mother is a female person not because she gave birth to you, but because she knows that she is one.
Hilarious.
Bridget was born male, as stated in the previous games and the 1boy tag specifically mentions "depicting one male character." Bridget also does not come out as female in Strive, only a girl. Nothing in Strive indicates Bridget's sex being changed. Danbooru's 1boy and 1girl tag could be updated to mention gender expressions instead of sex, or a new/different tag could be used to indicate the difference on posts where this matters, but 1boy is more correct at this point.
anon7631 said:
The conflict is that generally, the stance of people proposing changes to the tag system is that physical changes aren't necessary
They certainly are in almost all cases. Characters are tagged as male or female depending on their physical appearance, which includes the lack or presence of breasts, and most importantly the genitals. The knowledge of the genitals a character has plays a critical role in the tagging system, even more than the implied gender of the character. That's why feminine traps are tagged as boys and boyish tomboys are tagged as girls.
The rare exceptions where genitals aren't the determining factor exist for the sake of convenience for taggers more than anything. Transwomen/shemales/newhalves are tagged as female not because Danbooru is a progresive site that acknowledges their gender (that's up to each member), but because it's much easier for taggers to group newhalf with futanari (and dickgirl in other sites) so users have to filter one thing less. Same for cuntboys and trans men.
in any case the root of the issue is whether tags should be based on physical sex or the fact that he said "uchi wa onnanoko".
It should be the former, at least until Bridget's appearance changes more to reflect her new gender. Right now Bridget's body is more trap/otoko_no_ko (which implies 1boy) than newhalf (which implies 1girl), and art picturing it should be tagged as such even if it's "incorrect" and even "transphobic" (a word some users in the thread have been using fairly liberally in a subtle attempt to shame and cancel arguments).
Karesh said:
Legitimately, what.
When you want to express ideas that Newspeak tries to prevent you from expressing, you're going to end up with weird contortions like that. It's the inevitable result of how words are being redefined.
The apparent intent was to say Bridget declared himself a girl in Strive, but that doesn't mean he claimed to be of the female sex.
DeinGott said:
post #49690 would be 1girl.
I honestly can't tell if you're serious, or if your posts have been parody with this just being the most obvious joke. There is no reasonable tagging system where that's 1girl, and even the unreasonable tagging systems that have been suggested wouldn't tag it as such.
Karesh said:
Legitimately, what.
Legitimately, what? I don't believe there's anything wrong with what I said. Bridget's entire character and backstory would be a lie if they were to suddenly reveal they were always female. The twin sons line and Bridget's parents dressing them up as a girl to avoid death/adoption would be a lie. Daisuke would have been lying the entire time he talked about Bridget.
Bridget becoming a girl/identifying as a girl/expressing themselves as a girl/using girl pronouns from Strive does not change their sex. Unless the 1boy and 1girl tags change definitions, 1boy fits more.
verybigsaku said:
or a new/different tag could be used to indicate the difference on posts where this matters
This. I'm not even opposed to tagging post-Strive Bridget with 1girl at this point, as long as it's accompanied by something like transgender. It's been said countless times before and it's still apparent from the latest comments here, no side will be happy no matter what. The least painful thing we can all do is find some middle ground, and that means both sides have to be willing to make sacrifices: one side has to accept that this version of Bridget would get the 1girl tag, while the other has to accept that it would be glued to transgender or whatever else we come up with from now on.
groen90 said:
This. I'm not even opposed to tagging post-Strive Bridget with 1girl at this point, as long as it's accompanied by something like transgender. It's been said countless times before and it's still apparent from the latest comments here, no side will be happy no matter what. The least painful thing we can all do is find some middle ground, and that means both sides have to be willing to make sacrifices: one side has to accept that this version of Bridget would get the 1girl tag, while the other has to accept that it would be glued to transgender or whatever else we come up with from now on.
Even with a transgender tag, 1girl still doesn't work. If NSFW gets it too, then tagging boys with visible male anatomy as girls will be a huge mess, and if NSFW doesn't get it, you're left with a split in tagging behaviour that sees similar things getting tagged in directly opposite ways.
The only option that actually preserves the functionality is to tag males with 1boy, whether or not there's transgender tag for males like Bridget who identify as girls.
Updated
feline_lump said:
While I'm not the person you're asking here, I believe the majority of people in this discussion agree that the pre-Strive incarnation of Bridget should remain a boy, since that was the character's canonical gender in every game beforehand.
There are at least three people in this thread adamantly arguing otherwise. That Bridget is a woman by definition, so every picture of Bridget, including the ones before Strive, should be tagged as a girl.
Now, it's safe to say the majority of Danbooru users would not agree with this. But it is an argument being seriously made. So the idea that post-Strive Bridget should be tagged as a girl and pre-Strive Bridget should be tagged as a boy is not some uncontroversial take that everyone can agree with. If we go this route, we'll still be criticized for it just as harshly as we are now.
I think creating a new tag for the new design could help alleviate confusion between the two.
What about post #5624037? Is this 2girls, 1girl+1boy, or 2boys? What about post #5624039?
I'm not necessarily against this idea, but it can still lead to some unexpected outcomes.
anon7631 said:
When you want to express ideas that Newspeak tries to prevent you from expressing, you're going to end up with weird contortions like that. It's the inevitable result of how words are being redefined.
The apparent intent was to say Bridget declared himself a girl in Strive, but that doesn't mean he claimed to be of the female sex.
Can we not pretend that language changing as it has over the course of history is, this time, now to be associated with a fictional totalitarian concept from a deceased socialist's novel? It seems kind of absurd, unnecessarily demeaning and dismissive of the actual root of the word when you're referring to terminology being used to to recognize someone else's identity, not restrict your own.
verybigsaku said:
Legitimately, what? I don't believe there's anything wrong with what I said. Bridget's entire character and backstory would be a lie if they were to suddenly reveal they were always female. The twin sons line and Bridget's parents dressing them up as a girl to avoid death/adoption would be a lie. Daisuke would have been lying the entire time he talked about Bridget.
Bridget coming to identify as a girl does not make it a lie when in the past people referred to her as a boy. Not even the creator. Especially not since in all probability for the majority of the time Daisuke was referring to her it would have been without having come to the conclusion that she would be written as identifying as a girl.
Bridget becoming a girl/identifying as a girl/expressing themselves as a girl/using girl pronouns from Strive does not change their sex. Unless the 1boy and 1girl tags change definitions, 1boy fits more.
It first doesn't seem particularly workable that for a character to "Transition" in danbooru's category system they have to be depicted canonically entering surgery. Especially when a significant portion of real life transgender individuals never take that option for whatever circumstances or reasons they have.
But, as has been pointed out, genitals don't seem to be the sole binary on which 1girl or 1boy is used in general. Given the amount of art that is of original characters that are entirely undefined in that sense, it's gender based assumptions that inform nearly all tagging decisions that don't explicitly show or say something to the contrary.
evazion said:
There are at least three people in this thread adamantly arguing otherwise. That Bridget is a woman by definition, so every picture of Bridget, including the ones before Strive, should be tagged as a girl.
Now, it's safe to say the majority of Danbooru users would not agree with this. But it is an argument being seriously made. So the idea that post-Strive Bridget should be tagged as a girl and pre-Strive Bridget should be tagged as a boy is not some uncontroversial take that everyone can agree with. If we go this route, we'll still be criticized for it just as harshly as we are now.
There are so many varied takes being made in this thread that, quite frankly, it's completely impossible for us to please everyone. A handful of people may be upset that we're not validating what amounts to a headcanon about teenage Bridget, but it'll be far less than the people bothered about the way we treat things like post #5584067.
What about post #5624037? Is this 2girls, 1girl+1boy, or 2boys? What about post #5624039?
I'm not necessarily against this idea, but it can still lead to some unexpected outcomes.
This is one where I don't really align with the thread consensus, though - I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to call it 1girl + 1boy and newhalf with male. I'm seeing a lot of people saying Bridget hasn't visibly feminized at all since her last appearance, but her new model definitely appears to sport wider curves and ambiguous breast growth under her baggy clothing, and those traits carry over into a good portion of fanart. I don't find it necessary to talk about Bridget as if she's a character whose design doesn't line up with her identity at all.
Karesh said:
Bridget coming to identify as a girl does not make it a lie when in the past people referred to her as a boy. Not even the creator. Especially not since in all probability for the majority of the time Daisuke was referring to her it would have been without having come to the conclusion that she would be written as identifying as a girl.
It would make it a lie if Bridget were to identify as female or be called female, since Bridget's mother gave birth to twin males. Daisuke may not have decided for Bridget to be a girl until Strive, but he did decide Bridget to be male, not female. Bridget is allowed to develop as a character in such a way that they identify as a girl now. The problem is the 1boy and 1girl tags refer to male and female characters, not boy/man and girl/woman characters. Unless those tags are to be changed, then they should be used for male and female.
It first doesn't seem particularly workable that for a character to "Transition" in danbooru's category system they have to be depicted canonically entering surgery. Especially when a significant portion of real life transgender individuals never take that option for whatever circumstances or reasons they have.
I'm not saying Bridget has to have surgery in order to use 1girl. For Bridget to use 1girl with the current tag definition, they would have to either genderswap in universe (again the tag definition refers to sex rather than gender) or have been born female. I guess if Daisuke retconned Bridget's lore and said they were born female with a male twin, the 1girl tag would be appropriate.
anon7631 said:
Even with a transgender tag, 1girl still doesn't work. If NSFW gets it too, then tagging boys with visible male anatomy as girls will be a huge mess, and if NSFW doesn't get it, you're left with a split in tagging behaviour that sees similar things getting tagged in directly opposite ways.
The only option that actually preserves the functionality is to tag males with 1boy, whether or not there's transgender tag for males like Bridget who identify as girls.
Of course NSFW stuff wouldn't get it; moreover transgender could be put there mainly to act as a filter so people can blacklist it, so at that point would it really be a big deal if there were inconsistencies or not between SFW and NSFW? This way TWYS for all intents and purposes would still be respected, we end up making both sides happy (or rather, less angry) and we also avoid an entirely unnecessary potential big controversy.
verybigsaku said:
The problem is the 1boy and 1girl tags refer to male and female characters, not boy/man and girl/woman characters. Unless those tags are to be changed, then they should be used for male and female.
We really haven't been that strict about it in the long run, since we've had to deal with futas, feminized traps, and other trans characters. post #4955487 and post #5145607 can look the same and have different gender identities.
groen90 said:
Of course NSFW stuff wouldn't get it; moreover transgender could be put there mainly to act as a filter so people can blacklist it, so at that point would it really be a big deal if there were inconsistencies or not between SFW and NSFW?
Yes, because blacklisting only solves one problem. The tagging system should also allow you to find content, and selectively filter it (not just blacklist it entirely). As far as I'm concerned, the example previously brought up of post #5624037, post #5624038, and post #5624039 is, in itself, a disproof of the viability of a SFW/NSFW split for 1boy versus 1girl. Whatever system gets adopted, the way those images are tagged should be consistent with each other, and people looking for one should be able to find all three.
Even if there needs to be a transgender_(mtf) tag (and its ftm equivalent), the 〇boy and 〇girl tags should match the physical sex. That's what gives the most consistent and usable system.
groen90 said:
This way TWYS for all intents and purposes would still be respected, we end up making both sides happy (or rather, less angry) and we also avoid an entirely unnecessary potential big controversy.
The problem with that approach is that, if you call it TWYS to tag Bridget as 1boy for NSFW and 1girl for SFW, what happens to otoko no ko that are uncontroversially male? "What you see" for them may be no less feminine that Bridget, so it follows you'd be obliged to tag 1girl in SFW images. And transgender is inapplicable, so now there's nothing to distinguish them at all (1girl otoko_no_ko would be beyond absurd).
junfan99 said:
I know making an acc just for this is probably frowned upon, but as a longtime user who is GNC and questioning I feel I should chip in.
First off, I don't like the change as a fan of the character. Obviously not against trans people, but against how this 1) reads for someone assigned female at birth, whose entire shtick was fighting against it, and just having it announced as what they want like it's ok now. It carries a very icky "groomerish" tone to it given how they were raised, and 2) sends a dangerous, oft-repeated message about acceptance where to be feminine as a guy you must be a transgirl. It's just as unhealthy, and takes representation from androgynous men (who are already mistreated for similar reasons in trans communities) and moves it to totally trans people.
My point being not every trans umbrella individual is on-board with this. I'd have much rather any character who wasn't in this situation been used for this honestly. Doesn't help that the game has arcade format storytelling and the dev statements are explicit in stance but unclear in detail (Why is the mars symbol an androgyne symbol now instead of a female or trans symbol? Is the character mtf trans or just genderfluid, which was my impression from the game without interview context? Is it because this has pushback in japan and they want it to go smoothly there?).
TL;DR I think the message of trans acceptance is good, it was just handled clumsily and with the wrong character.
I'm not alone in feeling this way:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Guiltygear/comments/wj1rn8/so_i_noticed_this_symbol_on_bridgetdoes_this_mean/ijh1ycj/But I realise this isn't the tagging issue, as for that:
By and large I agree with keeping pre-strive bridget as 1boy across the board (because erasing that identity would be just as insulting to crossdressers who are having this happen to their characters more and more), I think most are in agreement with this. As for strive as 1girl, that seems to be the next best thing, though as has been said above, not without issues. Not sure how to deal with NSFW girl posts that show masculine features, or NSFW art with SFW parents. I think splitting strive into 1girl for most posts, and 1boy for NSFW posts is just illogical from a site usage pov.Like others have said, it works for a spoiler or reveal trope character whose whole point is they are known for their chosen gender and treated that way in-universe from the get go. Bridget has 20+ years of being an otoko no ko under his belt (this goes back to what I said about their taking representation away from one group and handing it to another, this happens), and seeing the art even post-coming out, that attitude isn't going away any time soon, and all sites like this will suffer for it.
Overall I hate this headache of a change because I need to make huge disclaimers and explanations about how I feel about him being a she now, and listing all the trans dressup and skincare guides I follow just to not look like a bigot. Sucks but what can you do, it's an important discussion to have because more and more characters like this are going to exist in the future, and public opinions will march with medical ones, so best to have a stance right now that keeps things smooth.
For somebody who is not against trans people, you sure are hesitant in accepting her as a girl, right? You'd expect for crossdressers (not a protected group of people, they only dress femininely despite the majority still being cis men) to at least respect and sympathize to trans women everywhere, but not being a bigot doesn't fit you in when you got out of the way to call her an "it" or "he" despite what you already know. And, of course, you're pulling the grooming card, what's not to like.
verybigsaku said:
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a distinction between female and woman, or sex and gender? Bridget's undoubtedly male, not female. I think this would mean the tag should stay as 1boy.
Went back to the cavemen's age for this one, not even arguing anything useful or anything that has been said in this thread, just saying "it doesn't matter they're still a boy" lmao
nonamethanks said:
Which Bridget is not. If the character was fully genderswapped then we we wouldn't have had this discussion in the first place, we would've just tagged them as 1girl and moved on. The issue is that Bridget still has a male body. There is zero indication that they transitioned and that it's not the case anymore.
If your friend named Frank decides to start having gay anal sex and post pictures of it online, it's still gay porn no matter what name Frank goes by, and people who don't want to see gay porn are not going to be convinced by the argument that "don't worry, he identifies as a woman now".
Bigoted admin saying a hateful comment? It's not cool to be a transphobe, dude. This is your forum, you should know that. Even with your silly analogies.
Updated
anon7631 said:
Yes, because blacklisting only solves one problem. The tagging system should also allow you to find content, and selectively filter it (not just blacklist it entirely). As far as I'm concerned, the example previously brought up of post #5624037, post #5624038, and post #5624039 is, in itself, a disproof of the viability of a SFW/NSFW split for 1boy versus 1girl. Whatever system gets adopted, the way those images are tagged should be consistent with each other, and people looking for one should be able to find all three.
Even if there needs to be a transgender_(mtf) tag (and its ftm equivalent), the 〇boy and 〇girl tags should match the physical sex. That's what gives the most consistent and usable system.
This has never been consistent in the past, though. Following your logic that the tagging system should help people find content, is there any reason to believe someone interested in otoko no ko content would not want to see post #5555157 ? The character is indistinguishable from a biological male without knowledge of the canon, yet they are tagged as 1girl. Treating Bridget the same way wouldn't be some crazy break with the norm.
Regardless, can we dispense with this notion that post searchability is what's really at stake here? I've already made my point that the current tagging system doesn't account for people attracted to trans women or people attracted to all characters who identify as women regardless of biological sex, and no solution will guarantee that every single person can find exactly what they're looking for. The harm done to this imaginary subset of users who might miss a post they'd like or accidentally get shown one they don't like is far outweighed by this board continuing to actively misgender a trans character, which imo is a pretty shitty thing to do. You can disagree with me there, but that's almost certainly because you fundamentally politically disagree with me on trans issues, and that's not something that anyone wants hashed out in this thread. So I repeat, either put this to a vote or let the admins make the decision and have them shoulder whatever backlash may come. These non-arguments aren't convincing anyone.
