Please keep your answers into one post. One is enough for saying only one on-topic thing.
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@Kamsthetics
Please avoid making multiple forum posts when you can make one or edit your previous if there's something else you wanna add to it.
Kamsthetics said:
See what I mean about associating genitalia with gender identity? You're just saying this because Daisuke Ishiwatari hasn't come forward in a Developer Backyard saying "oh, by the way, Bridget also got gender reaffirming surgery!"? It doesn't matter what genitals a character might have, it is completely and absolutely different from their gender identity.
I will agree with you here in some regards. Mentioning sex change surgery was bizarre and... very irrelevant.
But at the same time... most people will agree with you on "gender identity and sex are different." No doubt about that. It only gets complicated when it comes to NSFW posts.
The thing is, a lot of the tagging system on Danbooru has to do with appearances. When someone sees a dick, most people automatically assume "oh, biological male - we should tag as 1boy".
This case is only unique because Bridget has apparently been confirmed to be a transgirl by the game's developer, from what I've heard. This would require users to go beyond appearances, which Danbooru's tagging system wasn't really made for.
With SFW posts, however? There should be no problem tagging them as 1girl aside from some confusion and maybe some people potentially continuing to tag as 1boy in the future.
(Also, as NWF Renim said:
Lets drop the talk of genetics and chromosomes from this discussion, it's not relevant to the discussion on hand. Fictional characters don't have genes and rather few series provide that kind of actual information about their characters.
Try to ignore the people just saying stuff about chromosomes.)
sadodere said:
With SFW posts, however? There should be no problem tagging them as 1girl aside from some confusion and maybe some people potentially continuing to tag as 1boy in the future.
There is because the artists don't seem to have gotten the memo and continue drawing as though a trap, and it does not make sense to place such artwork in tag searches for 1girl (and by extension, possibly paired with hetero or yuri, and excluded from 1boy otoko_no_ko).
g6672D said:
There is because the artists don't seem to have gotten the memo and continue drawing as though a trap, and it does not make sense to place such artwork in tag searches for 1girl (and by extension, possibly paired with hetero or yuri, and excluded from 1boy otoko_no_ko).
what do you define as drawing as a trap? is it the lack of breasts? because I mentioned that pro-trans bridget artists also don't do that. is it an image where Bridget goes "i'm a boy"? because from what I see, none of the recent images have that. is it the otoko no ko tag in the original post? because that's not on every jp image. can you confidently say someone like hungry clicker (as an example), who doesn't say anything on their posts, was drawing their strive bridget posts thinking she was an otoko no ko? if the original post itself has the otoko no ko tag, that's one thing, but she's still being tagged as such on neutral or pro-trans images.
bridget_(guilty_gear) -guilty_gear_strive is:sfw
bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive is:sfw
If I am a trap lover, and I do not get the latter (mostly, exceptions exist) when searching, then something is broken. Conversely, I am not into traps and if I'm seeing the latter, then something is really broken since failure to return some valid images is less bad than returning obviously wrong ones. If there's a need to search based on gender then figure out a new tag system for that and leave the existing one alone since that works most of the time.
sadodere said:
4. And the most important point: not everyone will be happy no matter what decision is made. Seriously. You tag them as 1girl, people get mad. You tag them as 1boy, people get mad. You could tag them as nothing, people get mad. Using 1other could be a compromise, but people would still get mad on both sides. There's no right or wrong in this scenario, pushing morals and personal beliefs aside.
@morriganaensland said:
what do you define as drawing as a trap? is it the lack of breasts? because I mentioned that pro-trans bridget artists also don't do that. is it an image where Bridget goes "i'm a boy"? because from what I see, none of the recent images have that. is it the otoko no ko tag in the original post? because that's not on every jp image. can you confidently say someone like hungry clicker (as an example), who doesn't say anything on their posts, was drawing their strive bridget posts thinking she was an otoko no ko? if the original post itself has the otoko no ko tag, that's one thing, but she's still being tagged as such on neutral or pro-trans images.
hungry clicker's GGST Bridget posts actually give off more boyish/tomgirl vibes than most of his GGXX pieces, IMO, mainly due to the face. I wouldn't mind if they weren't 1boy though, as it's ambiguous.
Have been following without an account for awhile curious how this would go, thought I would lend at some idea to the foray. But, if it is TWYS and the site is deathly committed to that, what's the point of 1boy/1girl not just being 1penis/1pussy, considering we also already have similar tags anyways? Wouldn't be surprised if there was a reason I'm just not aware of, but it sounds the most sensible in my head. People who really care about bio sex or whatever tag penis as 1penis, people who don't and would prefer the current tags be gender identity based would be inclined to do the same without feeling like something is being invalidated, since 1penis wouldn't be stating a character is a boy here, just that they have a dick, which is what you see in the images.
lessbeanants said:
Have been following without an account for awhile curious how this would go, thought I would lend at some idea to the foray. But, if it is TWYS and the site is deathly committed to that, what's the point of 1boy/1girl not just being 1penis/1pussy, considering we also already have similar tags anyways? Wouldn't be surprised if there was a reason I'm just not aware of, but it sounds the most sensible in my head. People who really care about bio sex or whatever tag penis as 1penis, people who don't and would prefer the current tags be gender identity based would be inclined to do the same without feeling like something is being invalidated, since 1penis wouldn't be stating a character is a boy here, just that they have a dick, which is what you see in the images.
Sex is more than genitals, and it still exists if the genitals aren't visible. A male is still a male regardless of whether you can see his dick (or even if he has one). By TWYS a character can be visibly male even in a completely SFW image.
Boys should be tagged as boys, as they always have been. The only sensible tagging system is to tag what characters are, not what they identify as.
anon7631 said:
Sex is more than genitals, and it still exists if the genitals aren't visible. A male is still a male regardless of whether you can see his dick (or even if he has one). By TWYS a character can be visibly male even in a completely SFW image.
Boys should be tagged as boys, as they always have been. The only sensible tagging system is to tag what characters are, not what they identify as.
TWYS implies ignoring any lore information about a character and solely tagging based on what is in the image in question. That means in turn, her character having a dick isn't relevant to images where that body part is not visible, since you know, you can't see it. As such, images like
this
Where they are not drawn remotely masculine looking (which in her case, is also most of them), convey nothing that would make people think "male", unless they were specifically looking into the character's lore, which is not TWYS at all.
anon7631 said:
Sex is more than genitals, and it still exists if the genitals aren't visible. A male is still a male regardless of whether you can see his dick (or even if he has one). By TWYS a character can be visibly male even in a completely SFW image.
Boys should be tagged as boys, as they always have been. The only sensible tagging system is to tag what characters are, not what they identify as.
That is not a sensible decision since it completely eliminates the possibility of transgender.
Bridget is an edge case because some artists will draw her more feminine.
For SFW works, the only "confusion" would be if you're hardheaded and refuse to tag her kissing a girl as yuri.
Look, it's Guilty Gear.
For all we know, after declaring herself a girl, Ky / Goldlewis goes "Skidaddle Skidoodle, your dick is now a pussy" and magics her dick away.
punished_K said:
That is not a sensible decision since it completely eliminates the possibility of transgender.
No, it doesn't. Keeping the tags accurate by tagging him as male doesn't stop him calling himself a girl.
punished_K said:
For SFW works, the only "confusion" would be if you're hardheaded and refuse to tag her kissing a girl as yuri.
That's not "hardheaded". We don't even tag futa×female as yuri, and heterosexual kisses are even less so.
lessbeanants said:
TWYS implies ignoring any lore information about a character and solely tagging based on what is in the image in question.
On a realistic and practical basis, TWYS includes the fact that you can see it is Bridget, and we know Bridget is a boy (who is a trans girl), so we can tag him as a boy on that basis.
In other situations, a known but unseen trait can be left untagged (e.g. Remilia doesn't need to be tagged "vampire" every time) because the vampire part isn't relevant to the image. But the sex of the character is a fairly fundamental tag, so we don't have that luxury, and can have recourse to knowing what the character is (so continuing the comparison, I guess the equivalent would be knowing that the bat wings and fangs can earn Remilia the vampire tag, rather than tagging as a demon, even though the image may not clearly distinguish and she gets referred to as the scarlet devil).
On a realistic and practical basis, TWYS includes the fact that you can see it is Bridget, and we know Bridget is a boy (who is a trans girl), so we can tag him as a boy on that basis.
In other situations, a known but unseen trait can be left untagged (e.g. Remilia doesn't need to be tagged "vampire" every time) because the vampire part isn't relevant to the image. But the sex of the character is a fairly fundamental tag, so we don't have that luxury, and can have recourse to knowing what the character is (so continuing the comparison, I guess the equivalent would be knowing that the bat wings and fangs can earn Remilia the vampire tag, rather than tagging as a demon, even though the image may not clearly distinguish and she gets referred to as the scarlet devil).
Were the site to do that, something like this would have to be tagged as 1boy. People would rightly say that's absurd, and I don't see how it's any different with Bridget.
Especially in regards to
and we know Bridget is a boy
Because the whole point of my argument is that TWYS is based on what is in the image itself, what someone with absolutely no knowledge of the character's history would see it to be. Were someone to see the linked image and not know the character, transphobe or not, they would think "feminine" and tag them as a girl.
Additionally, the original point I presented was that sex can still be tagged while also not invalidating the word of the devs themselves by implying she's a "boy".
So people who care wouldn't be unamused to search "penis" and see penis, and people who search for posts on Bridget wouldn't be unamused seeing them tagged with "penis" where applicable, since it does not state them to be a boy by itself.
lessbeanants said:
Were the site to do that, something like this would have to be tagged as 1boy. People would rightly say that's absurd, and I don't see how it's any different with Bridget.
I'd say there's a difference between a character designed as a "newhalf" versus a boy who recently became a trans girl.
lessbeanants said:
Because the whole point of my argument is that TWYS is based on what is in the image itself, what someone with absolutely no knowledge of the character's history would see it to be. Were someone to see the linked image and not know the character, transphobe or not, they would think "feminine" and tag them as a girl.
Additionally, the original point I presented was that sex can still be tagged while also not invalidating the word of the devs themselves by implying she's a "boy".
So people who care wouldn't be unamused to search "penis" and see penis, and people who search for posts on Bridget wouldn't be unamused seeing them tagged with "penis" where applicable, since it does not state them to be a boy by itself.
Again though, that causes a far bigger problem than it solves. Under that form of TWYS, there's no room for SFW pictures of traps at all. Uncontroversially-male yet feminine-looking characters like Astolfo would get tagged differently depending on whether he was wearing male-looking or female-looking clothes—which, aside from being totally impractical, also means you're still left "misgendering" characters, defeating that argument for tag reform in the first place. It's unworkable.
Kaiterra said:
I'm not sure why "If we decide one way we make people who are unwilling to accept or educate themselves on transgender people angry, and if we tag another way, we make people who are angry" is considered an actual dilemma?
This is just a veiled way of saying the tagging system should conform to your political ideology, and those who disagree don't matter. You could just as easily say "I'm not sure why "If we decide one way we make people who are unwilling to accept or educate themselves on the existence of biological sex and objective reality angry, and if we tag another way, we make people who are angry" is considered an actual dilemma". It's not going to go anywhere.
The relevant part is what it means for tagging and searching. And the sensible, practical solution that gives the most useful tagging system is the one we've already got: make no judgements on the matter of self-identity either way, and simply tag what things are. That is what will get people the most useful results. A male's tagged as such whether he's a cis male, a born-male who identifies as a girl, or is a girl magically and unwillingly mind-swapped into a male body.
I think that last example is particularly relevant, since it strips away the ideological side. Even the anti-trans side would, I think, generally agree on the legitimacy of a character in that situation still viewing her own identity as female in spite of now being biologically male. But I also think the pro-trans side would, generally, agree on tagging genderswap (ftm) images with male tags, and would not consider that to be a denial of her female self-identity. It's simply a description of what physically is. And, coming back to the suggestions based on genitals, it is entirely possible to have genderswap_(ftm) is:sfw images (we have 281 pages of them) so clearly genitals are not enough.
Kaiterra said:
I'm not sure why "If we decide one way we make people who are unwilling to accept or educate themselves on transgender people angry, and if we tag another way, we make people who are angry" is considered an actual dilemma?
You know, yeah. If anything is clear from this and the last thread, transphobes can't be negotiated with and it was kind of silly I even proposed that middle ground, I apologize. The bottom line is, Bridget is a girl as confirmed by the developers, Bridget looks like a girl meaning TWYS diehards have no grounds to argue for any reason but that they're transphobes and don't matter to this conversation anyways, and whatever decision is made should reflect the indisputable fact that Bridget is in fact a girl.
morriganaensland said:
your low quality and incorrect posts are not needed here, please contribute actual stuff to this topic.
The claim has been and continues to be repeatedly disputed. The fact that you agree with it does not make it "indisputable", calling it such is objectively wrong, and pretending otherwise does not "contribute actual stuff" to the discussion. It's nothing but a diversion and a distraction from the issue itself.