We need changes on how we tag songs

[The first one is about Vocaloid and the second on is about other independent songs. I post them together to see how many people are interested as they share similar concepts, if we decide they should be discussed separately we can start new topics.]

Currently we categorize vocaloid songs by "singer" on the List of Vocaloid Songs, and the track of every song created by the same producer is instead put on each of the individual song page (with a few exceptions). This means that every time a new tag is created/an old one is renamed, we have to manually update all the related pages and it can get pretty inconvenient, especially big producers like Pinocchio (19 songs) and Deco*27 (45 songs!).

I’ve been thinking that we could instead give them their own pages so all the information is maintained on the same page. This would also allow people to click on the producer name from a song page if they want to read more.

Ultimately we can also make them catchall tags and make the songs imply them. I understand if we think it’s a bit excessive, but being able to search all posts related to a specific producers is something otherwise hard to do. We already give some real life band tags. e.g. Coldplay
Commissioned songs made for another copyright can be left out on the implications.

e.g. Vampire (vocaloid) will imply Deco27 (copyright)
Artworks referring specifically to the person will be tagged Deco27 (character)
Aijou Rettousei (vocaloid) will not imply Kairiki Bear as it’s a commercially commissioned song for #compass.

The general song tagging is quite messy as opposed to other medias like shows or games. It can work as something similar to this with the band/singer/producer as the catchall tag and individual songs implying them. We’ll leave out commissioned songs related to another copyright of course. This is specifically for independent songs.

e.g. A sky full of stars will imply Coldplay.
Internet overdose will not imply Aiobahn.

... the edit button exists for a reason, there's no need to make multiple posts when you're the only one that's replied to a thread.

It would make things slightly more efficient in the long run, but would we want to put in the upfront effort of requesting implications for every single song tag and editing every single wiki to point to the copyright?

DeusExCalamus said:

... the edit button exists for a reason, there's no need to make multiple posts when you're the only one that's replied to a thread.

I want to make sure that people read the second half too, if it was attached to the vocaloid part it'll very likely be missed, most people won't read to the end.

feline_lump said:

It would make things slightly more efficient in the long run, but would we want to put in the upfront effort of requesting implications for every single song tag and editing every single wiki to point to the copyright?

I can do that for Vocaloid songs, and human songs that I know enough of. Currently the producer name is already stated in most Vocaloid song that has a wiki, allowing them to be find through keywords, and adding extra brackets is not hard to handle. We can start with larger ones (Deco…) to see how it goes if nobody proposes a better idea.

I agree it would be more efficient if we'd just have wiki pages for big producers and then have the master list link to them instead.

I'm neutral to adding and implying producer tags. I personally don't feel we need them since this is first and foremost an art site and not VocaDB, but I see the utility and I wouldn't be against it.

Although if we did add producer tags, it would be more efficient to use their tag wikis to list the song instead of having a separate list_of_songs_by_x.

luntoer said:

Although if we did add producer tags, it would be more efficient to use their tag wikis to list the song instead of having a separate list_of_songs_by_x.

That's what I meant, making individual wiki pages for producers (you don't need any posts to create a wiki page).

magcolo said:

That's what I meant, making individual wiki pages for producers (you don't need any posts to create a wiki page).

Yes, I agreed in my first statement and have in fact already made the change for DECO*27.

I was actually thinking that we simply name the wiki "Deco27" (with a qualifier), this way we can also link his name in the "A Vocaloid song by Deco27 featuring Hatsune Miku." phrase, and we can create a "List of Vocaloid Producers" afterwards, not sure if a set of "list of songs by X" is a better idea.

Also I'm in favor that we just completely remove the producer categories on the main List of Vocaloid Songs and return them in alphabetic order, or else it'll just end up like

Songs For Hatsune Miku

Aqu3ra
See List of songs by Aqu3ra

DECO*27
See List of songs by DECO27

Eve
See List of songs by Eve

Hachi
See List of songs by Hachi

HoneyWorks
See List of songs by HoneyWorks

Jin/ Shinzen no Teki-P
See List of songs by Jin

kinda defying the purpose

magcolo said:

I was actually thinking that we simply name the wiki "Deco27" (with a qualifier)

That's what I meant by my third statement. It would definitely be more compact that way. But I feel this would be better with some consistency.

Deco*27 has a character tag because there is artwork of his self-insert.

Pinocchio-P has an artist tag because he draws his own art.

supercell is a copyright tag because they are a band.

Quite inconsistent. I don't wish to add tags for every producer since, again, this is an art site and not VocaDB. Which is why I'm tentatively starting with list_of_songs_by_x.

magcolo said:

Also I'm in favor that we just completely remove the producer categories on the main List of Vocaloid Songs and return them in alphabetic order, or else it'll just end up like

Point taken. For now, I'm reverting back and simply adding a link to the producer's name. I don't agree with removing the producer category completely since it does point out which producer specializes in which character, which is more relevant for an art-focused site. I think this system is fine; we only need to update two lists maximum whenever a new song is tagged: this master list and the producer's list if they have one.

luntoer said:

That's what I meant by my third statement. It would definitely be more compact that way. But I feel this would be better with some consistency.

We need some sort of qualifier, but I failed to think of a good one, Deco27 (producer) is just as ambiguous (and can be mistaken for his character tag) and Deco27 (copyright) sounds dumb.

luntoer said:
Quite inconsistent. I don't wish to add tags for every producer since, again, this is an art site and not VocaDB.

I don't agree with removing the producer category completely since it does point out which producer specializes in which character, which is more relevant for an art-focused site. I think this system is fine [...] the producer's list if they have one.

This points to the question that When is it relevant to create a wiki/ctegory on the main list for a producer? Do we want to have a strict quantity, say, 5 songs?

Well, I don't know much about other artists, but I am in favour of giving PinocchioP's stuff a shared tag.
There is simply a *ton* of his songs, and the modern ones have a decently distinguishable aesthetic, along with consistently featuring Aimaina and/or Doushite-chan, the musician's OC - I only found two songs released on Youtube on his channel in 2015 or after that year that did not feature her, those songs being 1year and Core. Beyond that date it gets a little less consistent, but still a lot of songs get them. Even without that some people, me included, would simply be interested in searching for illustrations about *all* of the author's songs - in an easier way than typing out:
~mahou_shoujo_to_chokorewito_(vocaloid) ~nee_nee_nee._(vocaloid) ~cosmospice_(vocaloid) ~kamippoina_(vocaloid) ~yomei_2:30_(vocaloid) ~apple_dot_com_(vocaloid) ~slow_motion_(vocaloid) ~koi_no_koi_ni_yoru_koi_no_tame_no_koi_(vocaloid) ~kimi_mo_warui_hito_de_yokatta_(vocaloid) ~mune_ippai_no_dame_o_(vocaloid) ~shuumatsu_no_koibito_(vocaloid) ~arifureta_sekai_seifuku_(vocaloid) ~tensei_ringo_(vocaloid) ~naizou_arimasuka_(vocaloid) ~happy_very_happy_(vocaloid) ~oz_(vocaloid) ~aimaina_(vocaloid) ~karappo_no_manimani_(vocaloid) ~omohide_shaba-daba_(vocaloid) ~rareno_(vocaloid) ~love_song_wo_korosanaide_(vocaloid) ~fushigi_no_kohanasaichi_(vocaloid) ~mushroom_mother_(vocaloid) ~psychedelic_smile_(vocaloid) ~sukisukisukisukisukisukisukisukisukisuki_(vocaloid) ~aisarenakute_mo_kimi_ga_iru_(vocaloid) ~sukina_koto_dake_de_ii_desu_(vocaloid) ~loveit_(vocaloid) ~kusare_gedou_to_chokorewito_(vocaloid) ~koisuru_mutant_(vocaloid)

And potentially others that I missed/aren't in the wiki or whatever. This search is impossibly impractical even for those who *can* perform it, for something that could easily just be a one tag search.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Even without that some people, me included, would simply be interested in searching for illustrations about *all* of the author's songs
[...]
This search is impossibly impractical even for those who *can* perform it, for something that could easily just be a one tag search.

Exactly my reasoning.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Well, I don't know much about other artists, but I am in favour of giving PinocchioP's stuff a shared tag.

One that came to mind is Orangestar, who has a very strong (and consistent) summer motif.
~henceforth_(vocaloid) ~kaisei_(vocaloid) ~if_no_sekai_settei_(vocaloid) ~kuusou_ressha_(vocaloid) ~still-gate_(vocaloid) ~hare_wo_matsu_(vocaloid) ~uz_(vocaloid) ~alice_in_reitouko_(vocaloid) ~daybreak_frontline_(vocaloid) ~asu_no_yozora_shoukaihan_(vocaloid) ~surges_(song) ~citrus_(vocaloid)
And many producers managed to at least keep a similar visual tone through long tern collaboration with an illustrator (orangestar with m.b, kairiki bear with nou, wonopo with glider, Deco with Hassan

BUR #12063 has been rejected.

Well, let's start with Pinocchio-P...? Just saying "I think it should be like this" probably won't get us super far. Of course if this gets through, other musicians will need their catch-all tags too, at least the more major ones with multiple songs.

...Also, now that I'm looking at it... Do we really need _(vocaloid) qualifier after every Vocaloid song? There's no ambiguity here, and while I know that songs are supposed to just have qualifiers for their main copyright, I feel like that should just apply to games, manga, anime or such. Vocaloid is not exactly a series - while there are specific characters/voicebanks, like, say, Hatsune Miku which are intrinsically tied to it, a lot of songs that use the software do not reference that or the software in any direct way. Wada Takeaki's Meltdown's video just features a bunch of male drunkards at a bar, for example.
And even among Vocaloid songs there can be ambiguity. Just look at Vocaloid Lyrics wiki for Love - there are 17 songs called simply that. Of course, not all are going to appear on Danbooru, but having stupid tag names like "love_(pinocchio-p)_(vocaloid)" makes my head spin.

(Removed shuumatsu_no_koibito_(vocaloid) from the BUR despite it being in that search, as I found out it was a song by HoneyWorks that PinocchioP just covered)

I've left this to sit for a while because to be honest I'm not too sure what impact it would have over the mess that is vocaloid song tagging.

We do have a problem with song/album/band tags. I first noticed it years ago when going through some album tags. Take for example ...and justice for all vs metallica, or nevermind vs nirvana (band), or fear of the dark vs iron maiden (band). It's conceivable that someone searching for one of these bands would want to see all posts referencing the band, including album cover parodies.
However, I'm not sure we can extend this kind of logic to doujin artists, because they aren't the owners of those copyrights usually. I don't see a correlation in artstyle in the searches linked above, and using thematic connections as reason for implications to me seems no different than having umbrella tags for mangakas like Kentaro Miura just because of recurrent themes in their works.

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