Newhalf

mongirlfan said:

Have you ever actually read the wiki for newhalf?
[quote from the wiki]

…
That's kinda embarrassing, I kinda missed/forgot that bit in the confusion, and I thank you for the correction.
However!
That description isn't quite right, either.
First of all, the "Danbooru definition" should be preceded by a note, that it is a Danbooru-specific definition, that differs from the real one, but as for the description of the real/Japanese definition…
Newhalf isn't the term for pre-op or non-op male-to-female transexual, but also covers post-op.
Someone who has boobs [but no penis], through surgery, is post-op BTW, but newhalf also covers those who've changed penis to vagina.

"Also known as "shemale" (シーメール)." is further extremely problematic, without adding a "(not to be confused by the English use of "shemale", meaning "hermaphrodite")"

The claim "The word "newhalf" was originally used for referring a male who had begun to transition to female but kept her lower body the same; literally a "new half"." (which I didn't find any mention of, in any of the sources, but which I suppose could be true), should (if true) be followed by "but has changed to the above mentioned meaning" or be what you start with, with the rest explaining how the meaning changed into what it means now.

…and lets not forget the claims that someone who is newhalf isn't necessarily a trans-woman… (though it's not clear what this means)
…and how the Danbooru definition of newhalf, means that they aren't trans. (newhalf implies futanari, and futanari are explicitly stated to not be trans, but purely fictional fantasy [I fully agree with that statement about futanari, BTW])
Also "other" is stated to be for characters of uncertain gender.
So…
How are you supposed to tag genuinely trans/intersex characters?

Also, Newhalf wiki has the tagging notes:

Ah yes…
The line about "such as the tags used in the source, the artist's commentary or indicators in the art itself that confirms the character is a newhalf." is extremely problematic, as this suggests that any mention or tag of "ニューハーフ", should be taken as meaning that the character should be tagged as newhalf …except that we've clearly shown, here, that the Danbooru newhalf tag, clearly doesn't mean the same thing, as what the word newhalf/ニューハーフ actually means, outside of Danbooru.
A character can easily be a newhalf according to one definition, but not the other. (and all IRL newhalves are, of course, not newhalves by the Danbooru definition)

Now, talking about concept and lore, I said before in other forum topics that "Futanari are girls who magically grew a dick, and Newhalf are boys who grew boobs through implants", emphatizing the fantastical nature of Futanari, while on the other hand, Newhalf are directly based on real life.

Aside from how newhalves don't neccesarily have boobs, or a penis (outside of Danbooru):
Danbooru implies newhalf to futanari, meaning newhalves are all futanari.
So, on Danbooru, that description isn't true.
…and an artist saying that their character is a newhalf, is also completely irrelevant, to the question of whether or not they are a newhalf, by Danbooru standards.

feline_lump said:

It's worth having this discussion, because the new definition for the tag is objectively worse for searching than the old one.

Which is the new, and which is the old? There have been many.

It was made based on the faulty assumption that the not-explicitly-trans people we tag as newhalf based on body type were somehow the majority

The majority of what?

has to be visible led to people mass-deleting the tag from newhalves confirmed via character backstory, artist commentary, or even other traits visible in the image.

Confirmed to be newhalves? According to the real/Japanese definition, or the Danbooru definition?
…because someone can easily be a newhalf(jp) and not be a newhalf(db), or be a newhalf(db) but not a newhalf(jp).

No one's searching shemale and thinking "damn, I'm going to be really mad if this character doesn't have at least a C-cup and visible taint", they just want any transitioning MTF character or approximation thereof.

Most who'd search for "shemale", are probably expecting hermaphrodites (and neither newhalf, nor futanari [by Danbooru, or real, definitions], covers shemales), as that is what "shemale" means, in English.

blindVigil said:

Considering the Japanese meaning of the word is right there in the tag's wiki, and we've had several different discussions on the tag up to this point, yes, I am saying that anyone involved in this discussion can be reasonably assumed to know the word's original meaning.

…
That assumes that everyone who even briefly visits the page, reads through the wiki pages, for each and every tag. Not even those who actually edit tags, read the wiki pages for every tag they edit, and to think they do, is crazy

It's a pipedream to expect that every single user will read that wiki, which apparently includes you it seems

Oh I read it, but it's not as clear as it should be. The page is a bit confused, quite frankly. Granted, I should also have paid a bit more attention, but still.

that doesn't negate the fact that the information is right there for anyone to see.

To state that the only thing that matters, is that the information is available somewhere, and as long as that is the case, then all is fine…
No.
That's simply not how things work.

…and it's lovely, how strong evidence, against your position, is provided in this very thread:

Veradux said:

The clause about tags and commentary was added less than a year ago by mongirlfan. It was never brought up for discussion and was never adopted as practice.

So the wiki says a thing, but it doesn't reflect how the tag is used, at all, even by the very active users, who read a lot in the wiki and forums!

We changed the tag to its current usage because it was just being tagged on any "canon" newhalf regardless of what you could see, and on nsfw posts it just ends up being visually similar or even identical to futanari. It does no one any good to have it flooded with sfw posts of Poison.

By the current Danbooru definition, newhalf is a subset of futanari:
There is full package futanari, with both genitalia, and newhalf with only penis.
Why?
Why not full package futanari, and non-vagina futanari? (or something along those lines. Can probably be phrased in a less clunky manner)
…which then leaves the option to let newhalf, actually be what it really means (and be firmly separated from futanari, with no implications …except maybe for NSFW images?), and thereby avoiding needless confusion between the Danbooru definition and the real meaning.
…or just skip both terms.
Instead have dickgirl with vagina and dickgirl sans vagina, or something like that, for NSFW posts? (with no regard for whether they are newhalf, intersex, or futanari)
And then have tags for trans and intersex (and futanari?), which can be used regardless of rating. (currently, there is no way to accurately tag someone who is genuinely trans/intersex. "other" is, after all, specifically stated to be for characters where you can't figure out their sex/gender, rather than were it is non-binary or anything like that)

Also, you say Poison is a newhalf, as does her wiki page, but…
Sure, she's stated to be a newhalf, in Japanese (and in countless English sources, citing that) …but that doesn't mean she's a newhalf by the Danbooru definition. This causes confusion and misunderstandings. Because the Danbooru definition is different from the real one.

punished_K said:

Slightly off-topic, but how is post #5565000 even a cuntboy?

Without outside information, you'd swear it's just a regular 1girl / hetero pic.
(changing tags to TWYS until someone yells at me)

…
The artist commentary states that it's a cuntboy, so that's no doubt the explanation for why it was tagged as such, but…
An image of a character with boobs and a vagina (cuntboys, by definition, don't have boobs), and no hint of any masculine physical features…
I'd say that is a clear case of a make character, being drawn as a female.
How anyone would think it's a cuntboy, is beyond me.
I don't see how the artist using that term, indicates anything, other than that the artist doesn't understand the meaning of the word.

You're spamming walls of text again. Please keep your replies contained to one forum post at a time.

zarlan said:

…
That assumes that everyone who even briefly visits the page, reads through the wiki pages, for each and every tag. Not even those who actually edit tags, read the wiki pages for every tag they edit, and to think they do, is crazy

Oh I read it, but it's not as clear as it should be. The page is a bit confused, quite frankly. Granted, I should also have paid a bit more attention, but still.

To state that the only thing that matters, is that the information is available somewhere, and as long as that is the case, then all is fine…
No.
That's simply not how things work.

If you're going to spam walls of text, the least you could do is reply to people's comments as a whole, and not break them into pieces so that you can refute parts of them as if the other parts of them didn't exist. None of what you're claiming I said is at all what I actually said, if you read the entire reply as one piece. To even go so far as to break apart a sentence to make yourself look smarter than the opposition is very disingenuous of an approach.

You keep repeteadly saying that there's a "danbooru definition" and a "real definition", still, you don't bring any excerpt that would consistently prove your point, nonetheless you conveniently ignore arguments, the past threads, and Evazion's statements about the subject, that goes against your points.

"Also known as "shemale" (シーメール)." is further extremely problematic, without adding a "(not to be confused by the English use of "shemale", meaning "hermaphrodite")"

...Are you really saying that shemale means hermaphrodite? ...Really?
hermaphrodite has nothing to do with newhalf/shemale. In the past this was a tag mostly used for 1other/androgynous characters with both male and female genitals, but over the years the tag got screwed thanks to Crimvael, so it's currently an ambiguous tag that should not be used.

…and lets not forget the claims that someone who is newhalf isn't necessarily a trans-woman… (though it's not clear what this means)

It's clear as crystal. Newhalf isn't necessarily transgender and it was already exemplified in the beginning of the thread.

…and how the Danbooru definition of newhalf, means that they aren't trans. (newhalf implies futanari, and futanari are explicitly stated to not be trans, but purely fictional fantasy [I fully agree with that statement about futanari, BTW])

The reason Newhalf implies Futanari is very clear and was already explained, due to visual similarity and blacklist convenience (let's not forget Danbooru is an imageboard, not a Fandom page).

The line about "such as the tags used in the source, the artist's commentary or indicators in the art itself that confirms the character is a newhalf." is extremely problematic, as this suggests that any mention or tag of "ニューハーフ", should be taken as meaning that the character should be tagged as newhalf …except that we've clearly shown, here, that the Danbooru newhalf tag, clearly doesn't mean the same thing, as what the word newhalf/ニューハーフ actually means, outside of Danbooru.
A character can easily be a newhalf according to one definition, but not the other. (and all IRL newhalves are, of course, not newhalves by the Danbooru definition)

Newhalf implies Futanari, so by rules, what is needed for a picture to have a Futanari tag, that is, a female body with dick being present, also applies to Newhalf. As said before, canon tagging SFW posts isn't the purpose of the tagging notes, but to identify futanari posts in which newhalves are being depicted.

nonamethanks said:

You're spamming walls of text again. Please keep your replies contained to one forum post at a time.

You clearly have no idea of what the word "spam" means.
As for keeping my replies to one post: Why?

blindVigil said:

If you're going to spam walls of text, the least you could do is reply to people's comments as a whole, and not break them into pieces so that you can refute parts of them as if the other parts of them didn't exist.

You complain about walls of texts, and then demand that I include 100% of the comment being replied to, thus making the post needlessly large?
…
Refuting a specific part, i no way suggests or implies that the other bits don't exist. To say that it does, is ridiculous. If you can point to any instance, where anything I've said, has been unfair, in that it takes things out of context, that would be a fair complaint …except you won't be able to show any such example.
Citing just a bit of what is said (not necessarily all of what you are replying to, just enough to show which bit you're replying to), is perfectly sensible, and improves clarity and reduces needless text.
It is also common practice, and is done by pretty much everyone else, as well, so why only complain when I do it?

None of what you're claiming I said is at all what I actually said, if you read the entire reply as one piece.

How so?
To just say that, that is the case, is mere empty words. Hot air.
"Put up or shut up", as the saying goes.

mongirlfan said:

You keep repeteadly saying that there's a "danbooru definition" and a "real definition"

blindVigil insists ([https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_posts/219407]) that there is a "danbooru definition" and a "real definition"
…as does the newhalf wiki page.
As does, in practice, this very post of yours.

still, you don't bring any excerpt that would consistently prove your point

I did, in my first post.

nonetheless you conveniently ignore arguments

Which arguments have I ignored?
Give me an example.

the past threads, and Evazion's statements about the subject, that goes against your points.

I am expected to read all those pages upon pages, of posts?
As for Evazion's statements…
*reads though them properly*
So the only thing in them, that would be relevant to what I've said, is that newhalf implying futanari is simply for practical purposes, and not a statement that newhalves are futanari.
Okay, fine. That's fair enough.
I note that you also go on to explaining this, further down in your post.
I was clearly mistaken, on that point.
Thanks for the correction.
The rest however, has no impact on this discussion.

...Are you really saying that shemale means hermaphrodite? ...Really?

Looking up sources to back me up, I see…
"Shemale (also spelled she-male; also she-man and he-she) is a term most commonly used in the pornography industry to describe trans women or other people with male genitalia and female secondary sex characteristics (including breasts) acquired via hormones or surgery.[1]"
…and other sources also confirm this.
…
Okay, yeah, so I was quite wrong about shemale.
That actually explains a lot…
In my defence, I'd say it's an easy mistake to make, for someone who hasn't really looked into, but rather avoided, shemale porn, I'd argue. (which is not a statement that I've avoided trans/intersex people. They don't use the term. It's mostly just used in porn, and as a slur)
In any case: Thanks for provoking me into confirming that, and ridding me of that misconception.
I should have double-checked the meaning, before making my statement… Ah well, no one's perfect. I certainly doubt anyone here, tends to double-check their facts, before posting. (which I very often do …though I didn't, in this case)

In the past this was a tag mostly used for 1other/androgynous characters with both male and female genitals, but over the years the tag got screwed thanks to Crimvael, so it's currently an ambiguous tag that should not be used.

WTF?
How is Crimvael not an androgynous characters, with both male and female genitals?
(How would you tag someone with a male body, but both genitalia, BTW? I guess it's not much of an issue, as pretty much no one draws such images, I'm guessing?)

It's clear as crystal. Newhalf isn't necessarily transgender and it was already exemplified in the beginning of the thread.

Oh?
Where?
Please cite the bit, where it is explained how newhalf differs, from being a subset of transgender.

As said before, canon tagging SFW posts isn't the purpose of the tagging notes, but to identify futanari posts in which newhalves are being depicted.

…except that this means that people see artist commentary and/or other sources, that firmly and reliably state, that a character is a newhalf, and think that the post should be tagged as such and/or think the character is a newhalf by the Danbooru definition, not realising that Danbooru has a different definition. The character might be newhalf, but not have a penis and/or boobs (thus not being a Danbooru newhalf) …and that problem can come up in NSFW images (with clear view of the naked penis-less crotch and/or boobless chest), as well as SFW ones.

Why not simply have tags for (physically) female characters with dicks, and ones with dick&vagina, without any reference to the word newhalf?
full-package futanari could be combined with no-vagina futanari, rather than with newhalf.
…and the wiki-pages for both, clearly stating that the tags don't necessarily indicate that the character is genuinely futanari, but just that they have boobs+penis (and vagina or no vagina), and is purely about the physical characteristics.
It'd be a lot more accurate. (a bit annoying, to people who don't like a non-futanari, being tagged as futanari, but…)
That still doesn't solve the issue, of how to tag intersex-/trans-characters, outside of the boy/girl tags… (and again: other is stated to be for characters where you can't discern their sex/gender. What about where you know them to be non-binary?)

I don't really see any reason, to use the term newhalf, in any context, quite frankly. Be it involving porn or non-porn, image boards or IRL… (other than when quoting, incl when stating that an artists/company, has said that a character is a newhalf)
It seems needlessly problematic and controversial.