Madoka Magica titles (plus liberating Rebellion?)

BUR #10862 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Fixing a missing implication, adding English titles and shortened titles, for convenience's sake. Though, I noticed that Kazumi Magica and Tart Magica have subtitles included ("The Innocent Malice" and "The Legend of "Jeanne d'Arc"", respectively), should I add them? They seem to typically be listed.

Additionally, I found two problems with current Madoka Magica tagging - Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica Movie and lack of a tag for the OG main series.
PMMM Movie, as a tag, is supposed to be used for four separate movies - first two are simply adaptations, fourth is yet-to-be-released, and the 3rd one, Rebellion, is pretty much most of the tag in modern usage. Since there are four of them, and two of them are adaptations of the OG anime, my solution would be to make the current tag Rebellion-only (after gardening, of course), and what's tied to the first two movies to just be removed from the tag, with the unreleased movie getting its own tag. Afaik adaptations generally don't get their own tags most of the time, so I don't see why should the first two get their own.

The other issue is that Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica currently functions as both a series catch-all, and a tag for the 2011 anime. While it is possible to search "mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica -magia_record:_mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_gaiden -mahou_shoujo_tart_magica -mahou_shoujo_kazumi_magica -mahou_shoujo_oriko_magica -mahou_shoujo_suzune_magica", most series get separate catch-alls and first installments tags. What I think would work is changing the current Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica tag into something along the lines of puella_magi_(series), and creating a new tag for just the OG anime, mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_(anime) or something. It's still not an ideal solution, imo, since it still has the two movie adaptations, two manga adaptations, a light novel adaptation and probably some others I'm missing, but at least it'd be something.

EDIT: Added Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica Plus and Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica Mobage implications to the BUR.
EDIT2: Also Walpurgis no Kaiten

My understanding for why the first two movies were combined with Rebellion for the current tag as is, is because the first two movies do contain elements that are not present in the OG main series. Citing EB from one of the few discussions on the movie in the forum, from forum #99129, "there are some things like Sayaka's hair ornament and parodies of the Luminous opening animation that are specific to the first two movies and have long been tagged as such," and I could imagine too things such as references to other specific movie-exclusive scenes and promotional material too would count under the tag.

However, I do ultimately agree with you on splitting up the movie tag ahead of the next movie (the tag's naming seeming to be an initial adaptation of Pixiv's tag for it? I can't seem to find much on Danbooru proper on this) , and also doing making a tag for the series proper.

While there technically are elements that are present in the first two movies that aren't in the anime, I don't think they are enough to warrant their own tag. The first manga version of the story, for example, has exclusively pink soul gems, scenes unique to itself like Kyouko giving Sayaka a candy bar in afterlife, or even a different shield design for Homura, and there is no such tag (and there are posts featuring those changes! post #2236398 for example). I wouldn't be pro-adding a Magia Record anime tag either, even though it introduces two new characters (and the one that wasn't basically a NPC was later released in the game, anyway) and has a completely different ending, along with some more cosmetic design changes. No separate anime/manga tags for, for example, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure either, even though both usually have different colour palettes for characters, along with adding/removing some scenes.

EDIT: Nevermind, there does in fact seem to be Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica Manga. It has only 6 posts though, and now that I know it exists, I can now say I believe it's nukeable, along with PMMM Online, Portable and Novel (though keeping Mobage as it has four new characters).

I do still think it would be a shame to remove the copytag way of searching for these non-anime elements for the original anime, especially given you acknowledge how your proposed mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_(anime) wouldn't encompass these, since for all intents and purposes they do have unique elements that we end up tagging.

The difference between Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica and something like JoJo is that the latter's anime adaptation, even when adding/removing elements, is still supposed to be a synthesized accurate adaptation of the original material. The former meanwhile, with its various adaptations adding and changing/reinterpreting elements of the story, feels more justified to have tags that one could search for such stuff (not to mention, if we have official art of any of these, like with Portable, I believe the typical guideline is to give it a unique tag regardless). I mean, even with JoJo in mind, it has a tag for All Star Battle.

If Magia Record's anime is different enough to that extent, I feel it would be justified giving it a copytag too. If Kantai Collection's anime could get a unique tag, I don't see why not the same for Magia Record, especially with it having two original characters.

BUR #10870 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

While I can see your explanation in the case of the manga (the differences arise from the fact that the manga is not an adaptation of the anime, but instead a different telling created on the same source material), the differences between the movies and the anime are really not that large. Most of the fans I encountered said to watch either the movie or the anime, depending on which storytelling medium you prefer. JoJo also has larger plot differences than just different colours - for example, the anime greatly expands on Fugo's backstory, not to mention the aforementioned palette changes that do change the character's looks quite drastically, at times.

Especially since most of the changes that weren't just cutting from the series when adapting into the movies are now simply what is a part of the newer retellings and installations - the fancy fence on the top of the school, or Mami's room, or Sayaka's hair ornament, they're all nowadays just what is present in PMMM - all three of those elements are presented the same way in Magia Record, as seen in the links.

Because I don't think we'll ever come into an agreement on whether or not the Movie tag should still exist for 1&2 without someone else stepping in, let's at least see if we can get Rebellion separated from the first two. The update part is a bit long, but it lists all concepts and characters introduced by Rebellion I could find. Naturally, I (we?) still will have to garden the old tag, but it should at least have a strong base now.

About the Magireco anime tag, eh. I'll tag it if it gets created, but I probably won't be the one to create it.

EDIT: Added an update for favgroup with hand-picked Rebellion posts from the tag. I haven't finished yet, though.
EDIT2: Finished the favgroup now, but I'd appreciate a second pair of eyes checking.
EDIT3: Added an implication between the proposed Rebellion tag and main series tag.
EDIT4: Changed ~momoe_nagisa to ~(momoe_nagisa -momoe_nagisa_(valentine_ver.) -momoe_nagisa_(swimsuit_costume)) to reflect that Magia Record designs probably should not get the tag. I think?

I would counter your point on JoJo, given that Fugo's backstory had largely been ignored in the manga and its only other elaboration having been in Purple Haze Feedback (which is non-canon and already has its own tag for relevant reasons), the anime doesn't do anything radically different to require individual tagging (we don't separately tag other manga/anime adaptations despite some having far more extensive filler/changes, i.e. Dragon Ball Z or One Piece). Same with the palette changes - that's just referencing how Araki himself doesn't keep his palette consistent for colored art, for stylistic purposes. However, I think what's more important is what you mention about the changes from the movies!

I had previously been arguing so far on the standpoint that the changes and additions from the movies were exclusive to just that, the movie retellings, and I imagine that was similarly the mentality as to why they were tagged with the movie tag in the first place (for context, in terms of my exposure to the series, only watched the original anime and Rebellion). If they're just part of current depictions then I think it's justifiable to lump them under Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica if something like mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_(anime) is ultimately created - after all, if you want to find the stuff the movies introduced, you can just do -mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_(anime) in a search and there you are (and Luminous already has its own tag too). Of course, I don't know if a tag like that would get passed, but as long as there is still a way to search for these things separately, then I would accept this alternative.

It would be good to have more voices join this discussion though.

EDIT: I wrote this in response to a bot that just copied the first paragraph of Damian's response from forum #215176, and I didn't quite notice. The bot's post was since removed.

Okay, I brought it up on Discord already, but I think I should mention it here too:

If you remove Rebellion (So favgroup #15315 and all those Rebellion-related tags from the BUR), Luminous and posts with Sayaka's fortissimo hair ornament, which I collected into favgroup #15452 (In short, this search)... You are left with pretty much a random arrangement of 277 Madoka Magica posts (if you remove official art as well, it's just 215).

Sure, those 215/277 posts can be gardened out, but keeping a copytag for pretty much only its opening theme and fortissimo hair ornament seems a bit silly, especially since, as I mentioned before, Sayaka's fortissimo is nowadays a recurring element - Movies 1&2, Rebellion, 10th anniversary reprint manga, Wraith Arc, Magia Record, most if not all modern promotional material, they all feature Magical Girl Sayaka with the fortissimo pretty much 100% of the time. I couldn't find a single post in the tag featuring Mami's rich interior nor the fancy fence after removing the three aforementioned elements at all.

The "anime" part is more-or-less just a moniker that would indicate that we are not talking about Madoka Magica And Its Sequel(s) And Spinoffs All At Once. If you can think of any other name that wouldn't be "series" and that would unambiguously point at the story of Madoka, Homura, Mami, Kyoko and Sayaka with no other magical girls added, I'll be glad to hear it.

The bulk update request #10862 (forum #215159) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

BUR #11243 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

deprecate mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_movie

Adding a next BUR to bring the discussions to their natural conclusion. As I outlined before, the current Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica Movie tag consists of:
a) Images of Miki Sayaka with a fortissimo (and out of 1504 posts that were tagged with both aforementioned tags, 48,4% were *not* tagged with the Movie tag),
b) Images featuring concepts or designs introduced in specifically the third movie, Rebellion,
c) Official artworks promoting the movies,
d) Extremely occasionally - images related to the short-feature movie, Concept (which, to be fair, could use its own copytag),
e) The opening song of the first two movies - Luminous,
f) Random Madoka Magica images that don't really have anything to do with either Beginnings, Eternal, Rebellion, Concept or Walpurgisnacht:Raising.

Five of the groups who could be interested in any of those subtypes would NOT be left satisfied. If you want fortissimo Sayaka, the movie's tag + chartag will still show posts like post #1842595; if you want to see Rebellion-related posts, you are drowned by the other categories, if you want to see Concept, then good luck, if you want the opening song's parodies - you literally have a tag for that, and if you want Madoka Magica content in general... Search for the main tag of the series. Only official art one has any merit, but still - outside of obvious AkuHomus and Nagisas (that is, Rebellion content) there really is not that much dividing the movie official art and general official art.

And, of course, this is inherently a tag bundling three-to-five different movies, with the first two being simply adaptations, anyway.

(*If both this BUR and the one from forum #215179 are accepted, please accept this one first - the second BUR introduces a rename, which would make this one pointless)

BUR #11264 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create implication mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica:_concept_movie -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica
create alias madoka_concept_movie -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica:_concept_movie

I went ahead and created a tag for the concept movie and populated it with what I could find. There's no saying at this point whether it will end up falling under the purview of Walpurgis no Kaiten or not. If it does, the implication can always be reversed and the title aliased.

Edit: Added in a utility alias.

Yeah, if Concept ends up being essentially an "ultra early trailer" for Kaiten, I think they'll be mergable. Though, admittedly, it seems like a lot of ideas introduced in Concept actually ended up in Magia Record in one form or another (like Concept's form of Homulilly appears similar to MR's Doppel form of her, Magical Girls becoming public, Mami's relevance/"raise in power" (Holy Mami), a shot of Mami using Sayaka's weapon is similar to the Connect mechanic, cats mass-dying => Kyubey eradication by the hands of Satori Kagome, etc).

That being said: I was thinking again about a tag for "just" the main series, and I kind of hit a mental roadblock - exactly how strict would that tag need to be? I am not exactly familiar with tagging multi-installment works like that. Would the tag apply in all cases of the characters from the OG anime being present, or would it exclude later-installment designs/situations? I don't think most people would particularly mind seeing posts like post #4688896 in such tag, though I feel like more "story"-relevant elements could raise some eyebrows, like Akuma Homura.

Don't we technically have a tag for the main series already in Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica? In a scenario where you make a series catch-all tag like puella_magi_(series), then that leaves Madoka Magica as a tag for the original series that started it all. From there, how strict it ends up being depends on the available tags.

For instance, if you were to go ahead with the scenario of making mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_(anime), then you'd have to stick by what the tag in of itself implies; having 'anime' as its qualifier, it means that it is strictly for stuff from the original 2011 anime (and its associated memes), so the stuff introduced by the recap movies like fortissimo Sayaka, the fancy fence, etc. would not be included in that, as well as stuff like Akuma Homura and anything related to Magia Record.

The problem is that the current PMMM tag is *both* a tag for the main series and all spinoffs. As I said before, the "anime" part is just a proposed moniker that would indicate we are talking about an approximation of the story that started it all. To be fair, there is a difficulty discussing "Madoka the Series" within the community as well - unlike, say, Danganronpa, which has an easy name for the series and simple numeration/"sub"titles (for example, the first installment is Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc, which is commonly abbreviated as either DR1 or THH), Madoka has a completely shared name between its first installment and series as a whole. When discussing the first Madoka, people coloquially call it: "OG madoka", "OG series", "madoka anime" or similar (with a general understanding that unless the discussion is specifically about various re-tellings of the original story, pretty much any medium works: anime, movies, manga, maybe even novel); when discussing that+what came after it, it's stuff like "all of PMMM", "PMMM + spinoffs", "Madokaverse" - none of which could possibly work as a tag name.

Looking back at Danganronpa, when searching for the first installment's protagonist without the first installment's tag ({naegi_makoto -danganronpa:_trigger_happy_havoc}), most of the posts included simply feature his later-installment designs. Therefore while my earlier example of the Holy Quintet in swimsuits is likely wrong, posts like post #4714123 could still qualify.

The reason for separate tags is also more practical. The main five spinoffs have a total of 3512 posts - that is, 6% of the tag. While it may not sound like a lot, this also includes the posts from the times when pretty much only the main series existed. Within the last three months, the ratio actually favors the spinoffs - 52,5% of the posts are tagged as such. I want people disinterested in either Oriko, Kazumi, Suzune, Tart, Iroha or their comrades to be able to easily avoid them without having to use the blacklist (thus having to see some pages completely empty) or depending on a Platinum+ account (since the search madoka_magica -oriko_magica -tart_magica -kazumi_magica -suzune_magica -magia_record already annihilates Gold users' ability to search for anything more specific), that other copyrights *do* have.

BUR #11409 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create implication mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_portable -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica
create implication mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_online -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica
create implication mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_novel -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica
create implication mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica_manga -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica

While I personally don't particularly see the point in these four small adaptation tags, since they exist, they should probably imply the main tag.

The bulk update request #11409 (forum #217557) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

BUR #11411 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create implication mahou_shoujo_suzune_magica -> mahou_shoujo_madoka_magica

I know I have just made a BUR regarding implications and that I added aliases for this tag in the very first BUR of the topic, but it turns out that this one was missing as well.

The bulk update request #11411 (forum #217577) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #11264 (forum #216927) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.