Nuke Humans

BUR #10737 has been rejected.

nuke hyur
nuke hume
nuke human_(warcraft)
nuke human_(totomono)
nuke human_(lineage_2)
nuke human_(saga_2)
nuke human_(hinata_no_tsuki)

Previous topic: forum #160682
Hume and Hyur are nothing more than human_(final_fantasy) tags. In the previous topic, the only defense raised was that it was clunky to search for exclusively human images of the two MMOs the tags are connected to. However, the tags already fail in those regards. The complained about search was final_fantasy_xiv -au_ra -miqo'te -roegadyn -elezen -lalafell -viera, but that results in 2395 images, of which only a quarter are tagged hume or hyur. There's no reason to have what is ultimately a padding tag that is not even tagged on over a thousand of images that would otherwise be used for it. Especially when many of them aren't humes but character with no discernable race (or untagged au ras).

I further have to ask: If the games had used the name "human", would we have even made the tag in the first place? Many, many other MMOs and franchises have humans as a playable race alongside fantasy races, but we do not have a Lord of the Rings atani_(lotr) tag. We do not have Tuatha de Danann (Mabinogi) or Partholonian (Mabinogi) tags. We have one for Warcraft, but it's easily the worst of the bunch.

I've included the other human_* tags after looking into them and seeing that they have the same issues. The Warcraft one was kept a while back due to the assumption that it was a costume tag, but it both is not one and MMO class costume tags are a hot mess better left to their own topic.

Before I make a vote on the matter, I'm somewhat curious as to what would be a solution to wanting to look for exclusively human characters in a fantasy setting, as I'm not sure a -race tag would work out all that well with how much overlap the various races have.

I'm looking at the tags in the BUR, and largely agreeing with it, but Human (Hinata no Tsuki) should be renamed, not nuked - from what I can tell, it's the tag for the player protagonist in that VN, so Protagonist (Hinata no Tsuki) would make sense. Though it's just like, two posts, so anyone could easily rename it (and remove that odd ass Other Name it has).

Veradux said:

The complained about search was final_fantasy_xiv -au_ra -miqo'te -roegadyn -elezen -lalafell -viera, but that results in 2395 images, of which only a quarter are tagged hume or hyur. There's no reason to have what is ultimately a padding tag that is not even tagged on over a thousand of images that would otherwise be used for it. Especially when many of them aren't humes but character with no discernable race (or untagged au ras).

What was actually said in the other thread was that that search was what would be needed "to even get close otherwise" to finding these characters if those tags didn't exist. And if they're removed, how does one search for, e.g., miqo'te and hyur together, rather than just miqo'te? It obviously becomes impossible.

You also ignored 7HS's posts from that thread, in particular

In contrast, MMOs and games with character creators have a high proportion of essentially original characters (there are some of these for every popular franchise, invented by imaginative artists, but they're much less common than in things that essentially require you to create them.) The only way to find original characters with X trait is by tagging X trait.

For a lot of characters, hyur/hume is the most identifying thing about them. In general, being human or human-ish is the standard, but that is distinctly not the case in games like FFXIV.

RingyThingy said:

Before I make a vote on the matter, I'm somewhat curious as to what would be a solution to wanting to look for exclusively human characters in a fantasy setting, as I'm not sure a -race tag would work out all that well with how much overlap the various races have.

There wouldn't be such a solution. This would remove the ability to search for these characters.

Yeah, as much as I do generally agree with the BUR, what Ringy and Laethiel bring up are also ultimately my biggest concern too. Of course, you can counter with "why would you want to search for regular humans in settings where they aren't the clear majority?" but some users would likely like that. Unfortunately, aside from just literally tagging what 'race' they are in the setting, I can't think of an alternate (tag) naming scheme for such characters. Something generic and general like fantasy_human would probably get poisoned very quickly.

Laethiel said:

There wouldn't be such a solution. This would remove the ability to search for these characters.

Then I cannot agree with removing it. If a tag has a functionality that cannot be easily replicated with a different set of tags, removing it seems stupid. Stripping tags purely for the sake of reducing tag count is no better than making ones to pad it out.

Laethiel said:

For a lot of characters, hyur/hume is the most identifying thing about them. In general, being human or human-ish is the standard, but that is distinctly not the case in games like FFXIV.

There wouldn't be such a solution. This would remove the ability to search for these characters.

There is a solution. One that was brought up in the previous thread and immediately shot down.

The solution is to universally tag human on all images. Not fantasy human. Just human. On everything. Or, at the very least, combine these two tags that are functionally and literally identical into a human_(final_fantasy) tag. Because that's what it is.

Because in all seriousness, you already can't use either tag to find what you're asking for. The tag is severely underutilized, is almost never actually used by users, and is rife with mistags. If you want to find pictures of exclusively humes, you already cannot do that. hume solo is undertagged. post #5315830 is humans only because can't be tagged hume because it has characters from other games where "hume" isn't a thing despite being identical.

So I'm being 100% serious here:
If you want to keep this tags "functionality" or lack thereof, we need to double down and actually make it functional. Propose a BUR to merge the tags and then start gardening the nearly 2000 images that have humes and hyurs in them but are untagged. Then make a human only tag so that people can search for humans only.

No, that's retarded. These copyrights are an exception where humans are the minority. It makes no sense to say that we need to have a 4M tag just because of a handful of tags with less than 0.1% of that amount between them.

Now, please post the tag combination that you would use to search for humans from WoW without human (warcraft).

nonamethanks said:

No, that's retarded. These copyrights are an exception where humans are the minority. It makes no sense to say that we need to have a 4M tag just because of a handful of tags with less than 0.1% of that amount between them.

Now, please post the tag combination that you would use to search for humans from WoW without human (warcraft).

Currently, there isn't one. human (warcraft) hasn't been tagged on anything in nearly a year. In the past year, it's been used three times. Eight times in the past two years. There've been hundreds of humans posted during that time, but race tags are a mess either way. Even if you search -every other race, you'd still mostly get other races. post #5413379 is the 5th result for warcraft -*elf* and there are dozens more like it. Even you haven't been tagging it on your recent dump of Personal Ami.

I don't see why these copyrights are an exception. Why do humans have to be a minority to be tagged? Can you give me a search that will show me exclusively humans on the front page? Because at the time of writing the front page is 14/20 human, with two of those having non-humans in it.

What if I wanted to search for only the humans or exclusively the non-humans of, say, Genshin Impact? genshin_impact -horns -animal_ears -pointy_ears -no_humans would be the bare minimum, but doesn't account for Hilichurls. And adding that negative into the search and I still get Yanfei and Paimon. Or just Klee with her hair down.

Point being, if your argument is going to be that we need the tag to be able to search humans, why is it copyright specific? Elf isn't. Dwarf and Orc aren't. And Warcraft has all three.

At the very least, I'll eventually propose aliasing hume and hyur to human_(final_fantasy).

Veradux said:

Currently, there isn't one. human (warcraft) hasn't been tagged on anything in nearly a year. In the past year, it's been used three times. Eight times in the past two years. There've been hundreds of humans posted during that time, but race tags are a mess either way. Even if you search -every other race, you'd still mostly get other races. post #5413379 is the 5th result for warcraft -*elf* and there are dozens more like it. Even you haven't been tagging it on your recent dump of Personal Ami.

I don't see why these copyrights are an exception. Why do humans have to be a minority to be tagged?

Because the significance of being human is the reason it is tagged. Tags like Orc, Elf, and such are general tags because of the fact that they are something you can directly search for no matter the series. Warcraft also had tags like Blood Elf/Night Elf, for the distinction between elf types, because they had enough physical differences to be worth considering.

How does one search for a human, however? What combination of traits can you use to describe them that aren't attached to these other races? The lack of a general human tag isn't because nobody cares if someone is human, but more because human is considered the *baseline* that other races emulate, because in real life, there aren't any orcs or elves to complain that we put ourselves first.

An elf is a human with pointy ears and occasionally glowy eyes. An orc is a human with tusks(...most of the time anyway. There are also the pig-orcs some series like.), these traits are commonplace among anime, thus there is no need to define humanity for every single series because they are in the majority, thus tag exclusions benefit them more than others.

But MMO's don't work like that. With WoW, you have a ton of different races that are often in the limelight as often as humanity is. Elves and orcs are one thing, but you also get cases such as the Draenei, Dwarves(Another common anime fantasy.), Worgen(Werewolves.) Gnomes, and at one point a race of panda people.

Having to undergo a gauntlet of minusing tags to find humans feels sillier than having a "Human-Warcraft" tag. Is it underused? Certainly. But we have other tags where the solution is to just start adding it to posts, not simply going "Well, throw it and all the effort used to populate it out, its all or nothing around here."

A better question to this proposal would be asking what is *gained* from destroying these tags? They do not apply to the majority of posts, they aren't used as bloat in the sense that they are fulfilling a purpose that cannot otherwise be easily done without possessing premium and throwing up negative searches like a bowling disco, and in the case of Warcraft are for the sake of a game that isn't even uploaded all that often due to its western qualities. I fully agree that some of them need gardening, and perhaps when I find the time I'll start trying to do it myself, but I cannot agree with destroying a functional tag. (Even if people have been underusing them as of late, they still attempt to fulfill their purpose.).

RingyThingy said:
But MMO's don't work like that. With WoW, you have a ton of different races that are often in the limelight as often as humanity is. Elves and orcs are one thing, but you also get cases such as the Draenei, Dwarves(Another common anime fantasy.), Worgen(Werewolves.) Gnomes, and at one point a race of panda people.

But it's not unique to MMOs. I already brought up Genshin. Removing the nonhumans with a massive -character search cuts the count just about in half. What about the many other MMOs that don't have human tags? What about copyrights like Arknights where there are explicitly no humans (minus the R6S crossover) in the entire world. Some of them would naturally get tagged human due to a lack of features on screen, but that still leaves a total inability to search for the lack of those traits.

Again, at the time of writing the front page is about 50% non-human images. I can go to just about any random page and that stays true. To say that humans as a minority are unique to any one MMO is silly. Especially given that it's not even true with half the tags in the BUR.

As for the original point of nuking, I'd like NNT to post up the usage stats on the tag. How often were hume and hyur searched in the past year? Five years? Ten?

Veradux said:

But it's not unique to MMOs. I already brought up Genshin.

I really don't see the point in combining a whole bunch of tags that are going to have different expectations to satisfy some bizarre need to have giant numbers on a tag. It's like the blood elf tag for WoW, yes its small, but that's because you are searching for something highly specific with a set of direct expectations. Your arguments aren't really *against* the idea of MMO's keeping their tags, but more towards any series with a larger non-human population getting their own tag, which I'm not really against in the long run.

Tags that work for one series won't always work for another, and ultimately that is fine. Tags that are too general end up causing issues where you can apply them to *everything*, which brings up the question of why the tag would be needed in the first place. These tags are harmless in the long run, apply to maybe three copyrights at a given time, and serve a direct purpose in making something searchable. Why is that so offensive? Is that not the reason a tag exists?

If you really want a general human tag that badly, then that is a potentially debatable matter in its own right, but I do not see a reason to remove functions that already exists to justify it. Fate tried that with catch all tags before, and we are *still* arguing about how to dismantle those systems in a way that doesn't fuck everything up.

There is also one extra problem of taggers starting to use the human tag on series that do not utilize none humans to begin with, such as random slice of life anime. Your initial reasons for wanting to purge the MMO tags were because of tag bloat, but the proposal is going to cause tag bloat to an even worse scale. Do we really want to be dealing with constantly having to tag war to keep the definition of the Human tag from becoming blurred?

The bulk update request #10737 (forum #214623) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.