Solo and Multiple Views

Provence said:

That's what I'm asking you.
The "solution" provided only creates more problems than it is trying to solve.

How did the solo tag not work?

Current: one instance is searchable; one character is literally impossible to search for, even for builders with unlimited tags
Proposal: one character is searchable; one instance is still 98% searchable, and you can subtract multiple_views to make it 100%, has essentially no impact on anyone Gold+

"No, I hate that idea, it would inconvenience me too much."

This is the debate we're having right now. It's asinine. No matter how clearly it's explained why the status quo is dumb, and how little of an impact changing it would have on the "holy land" that is the "one instance" search, everyone against changing it just keeps insisting that changing it is bad, but never actually gives a real reason why the status quo is superior.

Why in the world would we do anything to change multiple views? There's nothing wrong with it, it's not the problem. What problems does changing solo actually bring? Actual problems, that aren't negated by the addition of one tag to a search.

Talulah said:
Currently if you want to search for a single character you have to do some shitty search like 1girl -1boy -multiple_boys -1other -multiple_others -multiple_girls -no_humans.

This doesn't even fully work, it excludes genderswaps.

blindVigil said:

Current: one instance is searchable; one character is literally impossible to search for, even for builders with unlimited tags
Proposal: one character is searchable; one instance is still 98% searchable, and you can subtract multiple_views to make it 100%, has essentially no impact on anyone Gold+

You can do character_name OR original + solo. Both gives gives you single instances of single characters.
Or what do you mean by that?
Multiple_views is the same character but in multiple instances. You can even add chartag:1 into that. Sadly, the latter doesn't work for characters with skins or that imply another char tag.

He means that you can't search for multiple_views, where only one character is present.
You always have to take into account, that multiple_views could have other characters in the image.

Guaro said:

He means that you can't search for multiple_views, where only one character is present.
You always have to take into account, that multiple_views could have other characters in the image.

Yeah, so we need to change the multiple_views tag, and not drag solo into it.

Provence said:

Yeah, so we need to change the multiple_views tag.

But how? You can't change it in a way that allows someone to search for posts containing a single character at once. That change has to happen to solo.

nonamethanks said:

But how? You can't change it in a way that allows someone to search for posts containing a single character at once. That change has to happen to solo.

How about a new tag for these cases, and have that tag imply multiple_views?
That way you can have both: An actual solution, and not a diluted solo tag.

Provence said:

How about a new tag for these cases, and have that tag imply multiple_views?
That way you can have both: An actual solution, and not a diluted solo tag.

How is a 3M tag diluted by the addition of 63k posts? You're asking we create a new 3M tag instead, which would overlap with solo by 97% of the posts, which also means that solo could not imply it. It makes zero sense.

People already think solo is for sole characters no matter how many views of them, or we wouldn't have this kind of thing going on every single day. Everyone mistags it, every single user, including me, you and anyone from builders to members. In what way is the status quo good by any definition of the term?

For reference, according to post versions, the solo tag has been removed 95k times. That's more times than the entire multiple views tag. That's ridiculous, even accounting for vandalism which is a very small percentage.

nonamethanks said:

How is a 3M tag diluted by the addition of 63k posts? You're asking we create a new 3M tag instead, which would overlap with solo by 97% of the posts, which also means that solo could not imply it. It makes zero sense.

People already think solo is for sole characters no matter how many views of them, or we wouldn't have this kind of thing going on every single day. Everyone mistags it, every single user, including me, you and anyone from builders to members. In what way is the status quo good by any definition of the term?

For reference, according to post versions, the solo tag has been removed 95k times. That's more times than the entire multiple views tag. That's ridiculous, even accounting for vandalism which is a very small percentage.

Then maybe rename the solo tag to make its purpose more clear?
Regardless, I don't want to make a negative search everytime I wanna see single instances of characters. It's very tedious to remember that everytime I wanna do that, and then I forget it and have to add the tag. See, this is how you guys argue. I can do such personal anedotes as well. That's simply not a good argument.

For example, a post like post #5337822 isn't helping your case. Did you take an actual look into it or do you just go by numbers?
Most mistags are due to solo_focus, and not because of other reasons, like multiple_views.

The purpose of that tag is very clear and has been for ages. A tag that big of course need a lot of gardening.

Why not compare it to tags like the bare_* tags that are mutually exclusive with the nude tag. Probably also has a very high amount of mistagging in it. Want to remove this status quobecause of a high amount of mistags?

Provence said:

For example, a post like post #5337822 isn't helping your case. Did you take an actual look into it or do you just go by numbers?

I wanted to show the mess that solo causes, for being such an "intuitive" tag, but here, some better metrics indicative of how dumb this policy is: solo has been removed from posts speficically containing the multiple views tag 13k times.

And now we're resorting to deflection and muddying the waters. Because a status quo that greatly inconveniences everyone is preferable to a solution that barely inconveniences anyone. Still haven't gotten an actual explanation of why solo is objectively better as it is, just excuses of mild, virtually nonexistent inconvenience.

Guaro said:

Just wanted to mention, that this isn't only because of a (not IMO) "unintuitive definition", but because People are always to fast on tagging "solo" on their uploads. Gardening it opened my eyes for the amount of mistags where it's very obvious, that it's just wrong, like "solo + solo_focus" or "solo + multiple girls" "solo 1girl 1boy" and of course "solo multiple_boys".
I believe that some basic tags are just in your tagging flow when you're uploading, so it's of course pretty mistagged, because it's one of the most used tags. It's not only because people think that multiple_views and solo can be used together, but because they're just not thinking when uploading.

I've been thinking in suggesting a mutually exclusive tagging system for a very narrow range of obvious tags so that we wouldn't need to think for hours trying to think about all possible scenarios and drawbacks, like:

• 1girl and 2girls+/multiple girls, same for boys and others
• solo and solo focus

You would get a warning every time you tried doing this and the tags won't be added. This would expand the current politic of accommodating and spoon feeding users, but I don't think it's something inherently bad, we've been turning everything else machine-made like populating single-word commentaries, creating artist entries and the uploading system itself.

Also it's becoming more and more clear that many people don't read wikis or put much thought into their tagging, as you pointed and it's hard to keep track of all of it at the same time.

blindVigil said:

And now we're resorting to deflection and muddying the waters. Because a status quo that greatly inconveniences everyone is preferable to a solution that barely inconveniences anyone. Still haven't gotten an actual explanation of why solo is objectively better as it is, just excuses of mild, virtually nonexistent inconvenience.

You're asking questions that are hard to understand for non-native speakers.
I have no idea what you mean. Again.

The idea of mutually exclusive tags was floated before (by me in Discord) but it's not a great idea ultimately because of things like animated posts or multi-panel comics being messy.

blindVigil said:

Current: one instance is searchable; one character is literally impossible to search for, even for builders with unlimited tags
Proposal: one character is searchable; one instance is still 98% searchable, and you can subtract multiple_views to make it 100%, has essentially no impact on anyone Gold+

Yes, this is pretty much the main reason for me to bring up the subject again.
As it stands "all art of just a singular character" is a completely unsearchable concept (because of genderswaps, multiple characters in multiple views, or what have you) and "solo view of solo character" is an easily searchable concept, being the solo tag. With merely a 2% "dilution" if multiple_views were included in solo, we'd have two easily searchable concepts instead - one of which would need -multiple_views to filter out one post per 2.5 pages on average blame Talulah if the math is wrong if you REALLY want EXCLUSIVELY solo view of solo character. It seems to me like an overall net positive being held back by a really minor inconvenience at most. And also on a personal level just seems more logical with the name being solo.

I'm honestly surprised everyone sees solo this way.
When I think of solo, I think of exactly one character, and preferably only once (and even before I came to Danbooru ages ago).

Really interesting how expectations can differ. HEnce why I never had an issue with using the tags, except for a few mistags here and there, mostly due to muscle memory adding solo after having tagged 1girl.

Provence said:

I'm honestly surprised everyone sees solo this way.
When I think of solo, I think of exactly one character, and preferably only once (and even before I came to Danbooru ages ago).

Really interesting how expectations can differ. HEnce why I never had an issue with using the tags, except for a few mistags here and there, mostly due to muscle memory adding solo after having tagged 1girl.

"Only one character" is exactly what we want. It's the "only once" part that we have a problem with.

blindVigil said:

"Only one character" is exactly what we want. It's the "only once" part that we have a problem with.

Yeah, then create a new tag for that case.
Why have to waste two tags for that in a search?

Provence said:

Yeah, then create a new tag for that case.
Why have to waste two tags for that in a search?

This:

nonamethanks said:

How is a 3M tag diluted by the addition of 63k posts? You're asking we create a new 3M tag instead, which would overlap with solo by 97% of the posts, which also means that solo could not imply it. It makes zero sense.

Provence said:

Yeah, then create a new tag for that case.
Why have to waste two tags for that in a search?

Because of this?

nonamethanks said:

How is a 3M tag diluted by the addition of 63k posts? You're asking we create a new 3M tag instead, which would overlap with solo by 97% of the posts, which also means that solo could not imply it. It makes zero sense.

Making a second tag is the worst possible solution. It makes everything harder for everyone.

blindVigil said:

Because of this?

Making a second tag is the worst possible solution. It makes everything harder for everyone.

NNT read that incorrectly.
That tag would have an overlap with multiple_views, not with solo.