Hibari Oozora- gender

blindVigil said:

"twys" more than anything is a strongly preferred guideline, not an unbending rule. It would actually cause more problems if we didn't have a few exceptions, and besides, if we rejected the concept of "otokonokos" then we'd experience constant arguments and tag wars over tagging characters like Astolfo as girls despite canonically being guys.

If we can tag Astolfo as a guy because that's what he is canonically even though there's nothing visibly distinguishing him from a girl, then why can't we tag Hibari as a girl since that's both what she canonically is and what she appears to be when clothed?

Do you mean we should tag them as newhalf, which would also tag them as futanari? If you're goal was to cause a neverending shitstorm over mislabeling trans people as futas, I couldn't suggest a better way to do it.

I'm not saying I agree with newhalf implicating futanari- personally I think more useful would be to have some cover term meaning 'any woman with a penis' that both implicate. But as long as it does it seems like an okay solution that at least tags trans women as women while allowing people who don't want to see penises to not see penises.

mongirlfan said:

In general there is no visual difference between a flat chested newhalf and an otoko no ko, so the otoko no ko tag gets priority by TWYS. I could even say that newhalf are technically otoko no ko with breasts. If the character has noticeable breasts, newhalf usually get the priority (unless it's manboobs).
Not saying that I agree or that this is my view IRL, it's just how danbooru tagging works.

But if canon can supercede TWYS for clothed otokonoko with nothing to visibly distinguish them from girls, why can't it supercede it for flat-chested trans girls with nothing to visibly distinguish them from otokonoko?

Terpomo11 said:

If we can tag Astolfo as a guy because that's what he is canonically even though there's nothing visibly distinguishing him from a girl, then why can't we tag Hibari as a girl since that's both what she canonically is and what she appears to be when clothed?

But if canon can supercede TWYS for clothed otokonoko with nothing to visibly distinguish them from girls, why can't it supercede it for flat-chested trans girls with nothing to visibly distinguish them from otokonoko?

The otoko argument is the main evidence in this race and I have to ask...
Do you really want to equate trans to a shitty weeb fetish?

I'm not saying I agree with newhalf implicating futanari- personally I think more useful would be to have some cover term meaning 'any woman with a penis' that both implicate. But as long as it does it seems like an okay solution that at least tags trans women as women while allowing people who don't want to see penises to not see penises.

Futanari is the "any woman with a penis" tag. Newhalf is for futa with no vagina. Full-package futa is for penis, balls, and vagina. No balls is for no balls. Futa is for all of the above, as well as ones that can't be confirmed as part of any of those camps. We already tag futanari and newhalf as female. We avoid tagging canon as much as possible, so we're not going to tag characters based on their gentinals in images where you can't see them. If you tag something as futa, there better be a cock in the picture.

Veradux said:

The otoko argument is the main evidence in this race and I have to ask...
Do you really want to equate trans to a shitty weeb fetish?

I'm not equating it, I'm just saying that if canon can supercede TWYS for that why not for this? It seems inconsistent.

Futanari is the "any woman with a penis" tag. Newhalf is for futa with no vagina. Full-package futa is for penis, balls, and vagina. No balls is for no balls. Futa is for all of the above, as well as ones that can't be confirmed as part of any of those camps. We already tag futanari and newhalf as female. We avoid tagging canon as much as possible, so we're not going to tag characters based on their gentinals in images where you can't see them. If you tag something as futa, there better be a cock in the picture.

Okay, I see. It seems like less-than-accurate terminology; why not have have 'futanari' for those who have a vagina too and 'dickgirl' as the umbrella term or something?

Terpomo11 said:

I'm not saying I agree with newhalf implicating futanari- personally I think more useful would be to have some cover term meaning 'any woman with a penis' that both implicate. But as long as it does it seems like an okay solution that at least tags trans women as women while allowing people who don't want to see penises to not see penises.

This was basically the proposal that was originally rejected in favor of implying newhalf to futanari, the reasoning being that futanari was already by far the most trafficked tag. As it is now, there's pretty much no way to tag questionable or explicit art of a trans character without putting a separate fetish tag on it, so I wouldn't bother individually blaming OP here.

Anyway, tentatively into using 1girl/newhalf based on the posts, but I think we should be 100% sure about it before continuing that train of thought. I would guess there is some confusion about Hibari's gender (hence the reverts) because they are often described as a classic otoko no ko character.

feline_lump said:

This was basically the proposal that was originally rejected in favor of implying newhalf to futanari, the reasoning being that futanari was already by far the most trafficked tag. As it is now, there's pretty much no way to tag questionable or explicit art of a trans character without putting a separate fetish tag on it, so I wouldn't bother individually blaming OP here.

Anyway, tentatively into using 1girl/newhalf based on the posts, but I think we should be 100% sure about it before continuing that train of thought. I would guess there is some confusion about Hibari's gender (hence the reverts) because they are often described as a classic otoko no ko character.

I don't think there's any argument to be had: Hibari is a trans girl. She insists she's a girl, she wishes she had bigger breasts, she hides her birth sex at school... There's also an interview in which the author explicitly describes her as transgender (use Google Translate if you can't read French.)

The reason I undid your edits is because 99% of the time when we see new accounts with no contributions randomly mass updating otoko_no_ko to 1girl it's some "traps are gay and I'm insecure"-level of bullshit vandalism. I'm not familiar with the source material so I have nothing further to say on the topic.

Talulah said:

The reason I undid your edits is because 99% of the time when we see new accounts with no contributions randomly mass updating otoko_no_ko to 1girl it's some "traps are gay and I'm insecure"-level of bullshit vandalism. I'm not familiar with the source material so I have nothing further to say on the topic.

Well I can assure you that's not my motivation here. (Even if I were into Hibari, it wouldn't be straight, because I'm a girl lol.)

Terpomo11 said:

I don't think there's any argument to be had: Hibari is a trans girl. She insists she's a girl, she wishes she had bigger breasts, she hides her birth sex at school... There's also an interview in which the author explicitly describes her as transgender (use Google Translate if you can't read French.)

I see, good to know that the author stated it in no uncertain terms. Throwing a symbolic upvote in that case.

feline_lump said:

I see, good to know that the author stated it in no uncertain terms. Throwing a symbolic upvote in that case.

Is there any sort of formal decision process here?

Reviving this 2 year old thread because I changed some (only SFW + one set of posts that had obvious breasts) posts of Hibari that looked 100% female to 1girl (post #1026126 for example) and people changed them back despite there being both no visual evidence for that and everything discussed in this thread... This is an obscure character so I didn't think this would be that much of an issue, especially since there seemed to be a general consensus in this thread...? I also linked the relevant interview mentioned in this thread on the wiki page I set up for her.

If it was brought up in Discord I wouldn't know, but this is the only thread to have discussed the topic and I was never dmailed by the person who changed them back. Wasn't trying to be a vandal or contrarian with my edits :P

I don't want to just mass undo those changes either because I don't want to start a tag war. I wish we had post change reasons ;-;

Always weird to see I was part of a discussion I don't even remember happening.

From a quick scan, I don't really see a consensus here. The discussion trailed off without a proper resolution, and if you check the tag history, user #499293's undoing of Terpomo11's edits were left in place (at least on post #1026126, I didn't check the others). The result then would be, "We didn't decide to change what we were doing originally, so we just left it as is." That's what happens when we don't formally come to a decision.

blindVigil said:

Always weird to see I was part of a discussion I don't even remember happening.

From a quick scan, I don't really see a consensus here. The discussion trailed off without a proper resolution, and if you check the tag history, user #499293's undoing of Terpomo11's edits were left in place (at least on post #1026126, I didn't check the others). The result then would be, "We didn't decide to change what we were doing originally, so we just left it as is." That's what happens when we don't formally come to a decision.

Ah, I see. Yeah, that makes sense. From the posts in this thread I got the idea that no one was really opposed to the idea itself, just that Terpomo11's edits were undone because they were assumed to be a vandal and I assumed people just forgot about the whole thing since the character is so obscure.