Posted under Tags
If people are tagging purple as white or grey then they need to be bonked. Silver is just used as a cop out right now because of how much of a mess the tag is. Even though it's quite literally just supposed to be shiny grey, people take that shiny for much more than it is worth.
Provence said:
It also creates issues for the grey and white hair tag.
Why is this issue not addressed by your site in this topic?
White and grey can be objectively defined. And if people are already mixing the two, then getting rid of silver hair will not make it worse, it will just restrict the issue to two large tags instead of three large tags.
Removing that option of adding silver_hair is very likely to cause a more decentralized issue:
Then it's not only silver hair, but the "mistags" (I wouldn't even clarify them as such, judging the usage by looking at the first few spages of search results) extend to pink, white, purple and grey hair and even more, making it even harder to garden. Is this really the desirable outcome?
nonamethanks said:
I don't understand this argument. If people tag pink/purple on silver now, and after we restrict it they tag it on grey, then they can be told to stop it.
Can they?
You can simply say that this is purple now, because purple is a "defined" color already.
So, you can already tell people off from using silver on purplish-tinted hair.
You don't have to wait and deprecate silver hair for this argument to work, purple already exists.
When searching for a character or post I saw before but don't remember, I go for basic colors. Every color tag has some level of inconsistency because people see colors differently, not to talk about color blindness and confusion with shading, lighting and gradients, or simply due to tagging error. Sometimes it's better to search for other tags in my experience.
Laudividni said:
When searching for a character or post I saw before but don't remember, I go for basic colors. Every color tag has some level of inconsistency because people see colors differently, not to talk about color blindness and confusion with shading, lighting and gradients, or simply due to tagging error. Sometimes it's better to search for other tags in my experience.
Yeah, which is another great reason to not want to arbitrarily separate grey into grey and "grey but I don't want to call it grey". Something like post #4659775 is definitely grey but it's tagged as silver because ???. It's not even shiny so you can't really make such an argument.
Talulah said:
Yeah, which is another great reason to not want to arbitrarily separate grey into grey and "grey but I don't want to call it grey". Something like post #4659775 is definitely grey but it's tagged as silver because ???. It's not even shiny so you can't really make such an argument.
I'd argue that's brown.
...and if we can't even figure out that, imagine what it means for silver hair & co.
Talulah said:
Something like post #4659775 is definitely grey but it's tagged as silver because ???. It's not even shiny so you can't really make such an argument.
Not really the best of examples though, due to the lighting in the image. That's one the biggest things that can cause mistagging between users tagging canon (or what they believe is canon) versus tagging what they see, so you should avoid using them as examples since it's a confounding variable. Although to be fair, I'd imagine part of the reason you used it is because dark tone greys are not easy to find in the silver hair tag, but there were some examples like post #5115733, post #5220765, or post #5100073 you could perhaps have used.
nonamethanks said:
...and if we can't even figure out that, imagine what it means for silver hair & co.
I'm still more of the impression that's the grey hair tag that's being misused for overly light hair colors, such as post #5251670 because we associate grey hair and white hair as more or less one and the same due to common usage of hair color change due to age. This has resulted in the grey hair tag being predominately light grey, when those posts should have been tagged silver.
Even if we deprecate to end the silver hair tag, it honestly doesn't resolve the fact that the grey hair tag is being used for at least three colors depictions. White (mistags), Light Grey, and Dark Grey. Removing silver hair just means we'll need to create another tag to split the divide between silver/light grey hair and dark grey hair. Eitherway we're just going to end up with another set of three. Which means all this could just as well be accomplished by aliasing the grey hair tag to dark grey hair and cleaning it up, a easier task relative than doing the same to the silver hair tag.
NWF_Renim said:
Removing silver hair just means we'll need to create another tag to split the divide between silver/light grey hair and dark grey hair.
Do we? Why can't people tag grey hair just grey hair why would we need tone tags (which are absolute subjective garbage and should be deprecated too)
Personally, color tagging is so subjective that deep down I believe we'll be forever running in circles if we hope to have it solved for good, this discussion is way longer than usual, for example.
gray_hair shouldnt deserve a special tag for shininess since the others make do with shiny_hair
gold is blonde with shiny, bronze is brown with shiny, cobalt is blue with shiny etc etc
but of these only silver has avid supporters here
While I agree with that statement and I believe many people want to see this problem settled for once, I'm not sure if deprecating the silver hair tag will make our situation better. From my own posts at least, the best examples I can think of which the tag is somehow irreplaceable are: post #5191296, post #5054278 and post #5188740. Maybe grey hair could do the job, but then it'll turn into an catch-all tag, along with everything it has been tagged with already.
I also don't think creating dark/light will be that good, it'll just pour more subjectivity into the color tagging process, though we already have 4 light_*hair* tags and 2 dark_*hair* tags and maintaining the status quo (not nuking them neither expanding them to more colors) looks like a consistency problem that make the color tagging process less intelligible and comprehensive imo.
Every shading/lighting on the hair could change a tagger's opinion, including me, one can always argue X color is just Y color with shading or shiny version of Y color, maybe that's why we have tags like platinum blonde hair. I'd prefer not deprecating the tag or creating a specific tag capable of covering that shading/lighting scenarios, unfortunately I'm not confident that using shiny hair instead would work (much less users would follow that), like we use shiny clothes, but that's the best I could think for now.
Mexiguy said:
Do we? Why can't people tag grey hair just grey hair why would we need tone tags (which are absolute subjective garbage and should be deprecated too)
Because there is a clear difference between the colors like post #5261758 and post #5262963, and forcing them all under a single tag without means of differentiation, especially when the lighter greys are more common, makes it that much more difficult for people trying to find posts of darker grey colors. Also given that the white hair tag is used for a lot of very light greys already, your logic is a failure because we can't simply "tag grey hair as grey hair" when we're already tagging some greys as white as well.
Having only one tag for hair that is mostly grey but with some mistags is better than having two of them. I fully support this.
Also, Provence is right; post #4659775 is brown.
Tbh, I'd tag post #5262963 with black hair and not dark grey, that hair is mostly black and the grey region is probably due to shading (it even has small green regions when you zoom), using dark/light tags for posts like this would make the problem worse.
NWF_Renim said:
Because there is a clear difference between the colors like post #5261758 and post #5262963, and forcing them all under a single tag without means of differentiation, especially when the lighter greys are more common, makes it that much more difficult for people trying to find posts of darker grey colors. Also given that the white hair tag is used for a lot of very light greys already, your logic is a failure because we can't simply "tag grey hair as grey hair" when we're already tagging some greys as white as well.
I do agree that there is an obvious difference and would love to have them, but you know damn well that adding 2 extra subjective tags just adds more ways for people to mistag and 2 more tags to garden.
NWF_Renim said:
...there is a clear difference between the colors like post #5261758 and post #5262963, and forcing them all under a single tag without means of differentiation, especially when the lighter greys are more common, makes it that much more difficult for people trying to find posts of darker grey colors.
Slightly off-topic here, but I have a suggestion regarding this problem. When you get down to it, grey_hair isn't special; it's just like any other hair color tag. As such, whatever we do for grey_hair we should (save for black and white) be doing for every other color.
Rather than creating light and dark tags for every individual hair color, why not use light_hair and dark_hair for them all? With only two extra tags it hardly counts as tag bloat. Posts with multiple characters might be prone to false positives, but that's an issue that applies to a good 80% of all gentags.
AngryZapdos said:
Also, Provence is right; post #4659775 is brown.
I'm not sure how zooming in on one section of her hair is substantial proof of anything. You can color pick any pixel of her hair and get slightly different results, some of them are even closer to purple than brown, but every last one of them is at the grey end of the saturation scale. The fur on her hood is brown, her hair is grey.
blindVigil said:
I'm not sure how zooming in on one section of her hair is substantial proof of anything. You can color pick any pixel of her hair and get slightly different results, some of them are even closer to purple than brown, but every last one of them is at the grey end of the saturation scale. The fur on her hood is brown, her hair is grey.
So faded brown hair is actually grey? News to me.
