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Donmai

Tagging IRL transgender people

Posted under Tags

TheGoodRrat said:
This is not, has never been and never should be what futanari means. Futanari is a fantasy. Trans pics couldn't be farther from what I'm looking for with the futanari tag. Do not co-opt tags, especially popular fetish tags like this one, you're only going to anger more people.

There already are working standards in place. There's no need to set new ones.

Unfortunately futa was redefined recently for reasons I considered absurd and my attempt to undo this change was unsuccessful. Who would ever have thought that conflating futanari with newhalf would go on to create problems like this?

feline_lump said:
We seem to be coming in on a consensus that the implication should just be gone.

Two or three people in this thread do not a consensus make.

We already had a discussion and failed BUR about removing the implication. In fact, you upvoted the BUR.

I always thought that BUR was interesting. 41 votes, 16 yes, 7 :meh:, and 18 no. None of the votes in favor of removing the implication gave reasoning as to their vote and most of them are empty or near-empty accounts. One is even a borderline vandal who keeps futzing with the futa wiki.

It's why I asked about the name. It feels like the issue people have with it isn't tag usability or anything to do with the site, but an issue with nomenclature and/or some form of agenda.

Lobuttomize said:

Not saying it means there is a consensus, but I feel like a lot of the dissent on that would have come from the changes related to "dickgirl"

I don't think any solution will ever reach a true consensus for this topic. It's one of those subject matters that will always leave one side angry and constantly complaining no matter what we go for.

The side that wants to follow twys wants to tag sex based on the body type, the other side wants to tag the gender the character identifies as. It's impossible to reach a compromise because the two opinions are directly opposed.

We've had cases of bara characters with beards (ladiva, check this history) being tagged 1girl because canon says so, so I have a long time ago lost hope in any of this.

Veradux said:

I always thought that BUR was interesting. 41 votes, 16 yes, 7 :meh:, and 18 no. None of the votes in favor of removing the implication gave reasoning as to their vote and most of them are empty or near-empty accounts. One is even a borderline vandal who keeps futzing with the futa wiki.

Huh. Very interesting. What would be the appropriate way to raise this point? I'm sure admins don't like to see outside meddlers who don't use the site influence its policies.

Let's not go down this path please. If we start accusing each other of astroturfing then the thread is going to end up locked fast. That's not arguing in good faith.

Staff is not stupid, of course if we see freshly registered members with zero edits and the only contribution being forum votes we're going to take those with a grain of salt.

Veradux said:
I always thought that BUR was interesting. 41 votes, 16 yes, 7 :meh:, and 18 no. None of the votes in favor of removing the implication gave reasoning as to their vote and most of them are empty or near-empty accounts. One is even a borderline vandal who keeps futzing with the futa wiki.

It's why I asked about the name. It feels like the issue people have with it isn't tag usability or anything to do with the site, but an issue with nomenclature and/or some form of agenda.

Not sure why you're making a claim like that when one can see that among the votes in favour, Tomzai, Aqros161, and feline lump were in the thread discussing it, alongside myself of course. The majority of votes both for and against came from people who weren't talking in the thread, and I even made a post after making the request prompting the people voting against it who hadn't posted to explain what the issue they had with the request was.

The thing with "dickgirl" comes from a factor: in the past, a good number of users were tagging Newhalf as Futanari because of how similar they visually are. At that point, Newhalf and Futanari were treated as entirely different things, but these taggings led to the discussions in topic #185526, which gave us the Newhalf to Futanari implication.

However, this implication is clearly creating issues as we saw here in this discussion, because of posts like post #4656301 that clearly depicts a famous shemale pornstar, so it would be natural to tag as Newhalf (or maybe as Otoko no ko for the small breasts), but not as Futanari. Other posts like post #4601586 or post #4093993 also feel inadequate to be tagged as futanari imo (I mean, does the character in post #4093993 looks like a girl that grew a dick, or a crossdressing man that grew some boobs?).

It may not look like it, but it seems that Futanari and Newhalf being separated, but both implying a Dickgirl catch-all tag (as proposed in BUR #5446) seems like a interesting option because you can have both tags act separately and independently, but also search all of them with one tag (for the users that I want to see all posts featuring a female body with dick)

The dickgirl overall tag was what I originally proposed too many months ago, however that is not the point of this topic. Whether newhalf implies futanari has nothing to do with the tagged gender of these characters, which is the issue that the topic is trying to solve.

If you want to argue for newhalf being deimplicated you should open a new topic.

Aqros161 said:

She does have breasts in that picture, even if they're small.

And even so, the presence or absence of breasts can hardly be the determining factor. Just search miniskirt solo ~flat_chest ~otoko_no_ko rating:s and tell me you can sort them into 1boy or 1girl without prior knowledge of each character.

You can if you change the rating on that search. We are arguing about a porn post, not some random safe crossdressing.

(Sorry, I accidentally edited your post instead of replying. Dumb mobile interface)

nonamethanks said:

The dickgirl overall tag was what I originally proposed too many months ago, however that is not the point of this topic. Whether newhalf implies futanari has nothing to do with the tagged gender of these characters, which is the issue that the topic is trying to solve.

If you want to argue for newhalf being deimplicated you should open a new topic.

Okay, I was just trying to look at the cause.

mongirlfan said:
Other posts like post #4601586 or post #4093993 also feel inadequate to be tagged as futanari imo (I mean, does the character in post #4093993 looks like a girl that grew a dick, or a crossdressing man that grew some boobs?).

I think the whole "magically grew a dick" line is being focused on too much. Which is why it was removed from the wiki.

It doesn't matter if it was a man who grew tits or a girl who grew a dick. All that matters is that there is a cock and boob. Doesn't even need balls or a vagina.

As for those two images the first one is clearly cock and tits. You cannot confirm whether there is a vagina but there are clearly tits and a penis. It gets futanari and nothing else. The second? Gets the transgender tag as it is clearly a before and after image. It should not have any of the futanari tags as there is no penis and no allusion to a penis.

nonamethanks said:

Why did you have to do it in this topic? Now it won't go anywhere again and we'll go back to endlessly reverting each other's edits.

Who, me? Just seemed like it was part of this discussion so I thought I would put it to a vote instead of having people debate in circles

nonamethanks said:

Read the topic. We are arguing on whether transgender characters should be tagged based on the gender they claim instead of what they look like.

Newhalf vs futa has nothing to do with this thread.

The topic of discussion has already shifted a lot from the title so I didn't think it would be a problem at the time. I fear a new thread just for that single vote would end up locked since it branched off of this thread which has already caused another to be locked.

Not arguing, just giving my reason for having done it and my reason for not making another thread for that vote now

Newhalf implies futanari because futanari is the second most blacklisted tag on the site, and I think most people blacklisting futa expect it to include newhalf too. It's frustrating as a user when you blacklist a fetish you don't want to see, then posts keep slipping by because at some point futa fetishists decided that actually there are two categories, newhalf and futanari, and these are two totally different things, despite looking practically identical to everyone else.

Thousands of people blacklist futa and it's not reasonable to make them all change their blacklists or learn about all the different types of futa just to block a fetish they hate.

(For the record, the most blacklisted tag is yaoi. This would be like if yaoi fans decided that otoko no ko didn't count as yaoi, because they didn't like all that femme twink shit polluting their yaoi tag, so now everybody else gets to change their blacklists and learn how to block all these other forms of yaoi suddenly not included by the yaoi tag.)

As for post #4656301, it's telling to me that nobody has tried to tag it as hetero. Why not? If you truly believe this post is 1girl and 1boy, then it follows that it should be tagged as hetero. As far as I know, this person identifies as heterosexual. One could argue that by tagging it 1girl but not as hetero, you're still being transphobic, because you're not truly viewing the person as a woman.

One could further make the argument that the newhalf with male and newhalf with female tags themselves are transphobic and should be nuked. If you view newhalfs as women, then you shouldn't need these tags, you should just be able to tag them as newhalf+hetero if they're with a boy, or newhalf+yuri if they're with a girl. The existence of these tags implies that you don't view newhalfs as "real" women.

One could even make the argument that the newhalf tag itself is transphobic and should be nuked. The tag can be seen as an admission that newhalfs aren't "real" women, they're something else that needs separate tagging. By labeling them as newhalfs, you're not treating them the same as "real" women, you're objectifying them and fetishizing them based on their gender identity.

So be careful about calling people bigots for not sharing your point of view. The same arguments you use against others can be turned around against you.

We're talking about porn here, and porn is rarely politically correct. Just imagine the reaction if in that post she was fucking a woman instead of a man and people tried to tag it as yuri because it's 2girls having sex. I'm guessing that even the people arguing that she should be tagged as 1girl would be reluctant to tag her with yuri.

The point of tag what you see is that when you search for a tag, you get what you would expect. Would someone searching for 1girl or hetero expect to find this post? Probably not. Would someone blacklisting otoko no ko or yaoi expect this post to be hidden? Probably so. Would people get pissed off if you tagged a newhalf with female post as yuri? Yes, incredibly so. Tagging this post as 1girl isn't meant to be commentary on the real person it's based on, it's meant to categorize the post in the way that most users would expect.

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