Donmai

Hadanugi_dousa implications causing problems with non-Japanese clothing.

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NNescio

Currently Hadanugi_dousa implies open_kimono. Which goes all the way down the implication chain to kimono and then japanese_clothes.

The problem is when characters are striking the same 'pose' when wearing non-Japanese clothing. Examples are usually Chinese clothing:

...introducing irrelevant open_kimono, kimono and japanese_clothes tags in the process. That are... exceedingly troublesome to remove unless one knows (or can figure out) the whole implication chain and remove all four tags at once.

The hadanugi_dousa wiki does explain that it should be used for kimono examples only. But this can be a bit unintuitive as the term refers to the pose, and doesn't necessarily imply the need for a kimono. Any example that features a character wearing loose robe-like clothing with one shoulder off and striking a martial pose (with dragon tattoo exposed for good measure) will feel like hadanugi_dousa, for people who don't look at the wiki. And it might be somewhat common because it's kinda like a shared trope for Eastern martial arts and 'tough guys' in general. I suspect there may be more examples, just obscured by chinese_clothing and korean_clothing not being tagged properly.

So, should the hadanugi_dousa -> open_kimono implication be removed?

Strictly speaking, "Hadanugi dousa" should only be used when a character is performing kyuudo (Japanese archery), as it is a kyuudo-specific term. But this restrictive interpretation is going to be far less useful and be much harder to 'enforce'.

Edit:

More problematic posts (monk robes):
post #4582720, hadanugi_dousa monk_(granblue_fantasy).

One Eirin post:
post #2425399

Then there's this case of 'canonical' tagging:
post #4371625.

I suppose mistags do happen all the time for all tags, but most others don't have a... complicated 4-tag implication chain like that for hadanugi dousa, making it difficult to fix mistags. And another issue is that it might hard for people unfamiliar with Eastern clothing to tell a kimono apart from other similar robe-like clothings. This causes Chinese clothes and monk robes (the more traditional Buddhist kinds, not some Japanese ones that are also kimonos) to get mistagged with two kimono tags and japanese_clothing.

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7HS

+1 from me most most strongly due to images like post #4572048 that, even if one's opinion is "poses that resemble hadanugi dousa in non-kimono clothing shouldn't be tagged as it" (I'd prefer to allow some leeway personally), are clearly direct references to a character's 'standard' wearing of such.

Edit: Upon a second look, that particular image may in fact just be a lazily drawn version of her standard outfit. Hard to be certain either way.

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NNescio

7HS said:

+1 from me most most strongly due to images like post #4572048 that, even if one's opinion is "poses that resemble hadanugi dousa in non-kimono clothing shouldn't be tagged as it" (I'd prefer to allow some leeway personally), are clearly direct references to a character's 'standard' wearing of such.

Oh, right! Haven't considered that either. Thanks for pointing it out.

post #4558939 is also problematic. Image isn't clear, but I don't think that's a kimono. Too short, and the cut isn't right either for short kimonos.

Edit: Actually, hmm, after relooking things, think post #4572048 might be a kimono, due to the tasuki 'sleeve garter'. Though it is still problematic because it does cause some unclear examples that might not otherwise be tagged kimono (and Japanese clothes) to also get tagged with it. shouhou_(kancolle) hadanugi_dousa shirt also have some examples that kinda look like she's wearing a shirt + skirt school uniform (though the shirts are probably mistagged). post #4560053 also has another where the kimono is barely indiscernible. And is also a mistag (for hadanugi dousa) because it's off both shoulders.

Edit2: And Shouhou herself also causes some 'canon mistagging' to occur like for post #4027733.

Edit3: happi hadanugi_dousa also has 7 happi jacket (normally considered distinct from kimono and not tagged such) examples that ended up being erroneously tagged open_kimono and kimono.

And then there's post #4527202, which may be a case of someone accidentally 'canon'-tagging hadanugi_dousa, deleting it, and then forgetting to remove the implied open kimono.

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NNescio

evazion said:

Hadanugi dousa will need to be gardened to remove open kimono, open clothes, kimono, and Japanese clothes, where appropriate. I think even calling it open clothes is questionable, that's normally for clothes that open in the front, like a robe, not for clothes that are just pulled down to one side.

Thanks.

I've removed the problematic tags from the above examples for now. Or at least the ones that I'm sure are not kimonos.
(The Shouhou ones above are probably kimonos, though I'd usually probably not tag them such because those aren't quite visible enough to identify as kimonos. But if the tag is already there, I don't really feel justified enough to remove them either.)

And yes, now that you mention it, open clothes is questionable too. Especially the ones where there is something worn underneath, moreso if the 'hanging' kimono sleeve isn't visible either. sakata_gintoki open_clothes is filled with these examples. sakata_gintoki open_clothes ~portrait ~upper_body even more so. open_clothes from_behind hadanugi_dousa too, because those are back views where one can't see the garment being opened at the front.

Though, personally I'm not quite confident enough to proceed with gardening those open_clothes + hadanugi_dousa examples yet.

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