Dickgirls and related tags

Anonymaster said:

As per both the literal name futanari and the tag's own definition, you are wrong.

Well, literal naming is often irrelevant to how tags get used. As such, I will edit a little note about how futa is meant to be used as an umbrella tag, as well as a tag for when none of the granular tags apply.

Except a newhalf isn't a "girl with a dick", it's a dude with breasts.

I'mma be real here:
Fuck off with this line. I'm sick of seeing it every time a futa discussion comes up. It's bullshit and has no fucking bearing on how danbooru tags.

This change is not changing things for ease of use. It was pretty simple before: I searched for the futanari tag and I got images of futanari and not newhalves, because I wasn't searching for newhalves.

Considering that even before the implication, a majority of newhalf images were already tagged futanari I'mma say you're wrong.

Now I search for futanari and I get images of futanari and newhalves, and I have to explicitly remove newhalves from the search because this stupid implication is tying them together for completely ass-backwards logic. Perhaps it would be helpful for those who want to see both shemales and futanari together as they now have one tag that searches both instead of simply searching for both, but I am not one of them. This is "ease of use" for one group at the expense of the other group, which can't be considered ease of use at all.

"Waaaa! I never noticed I was fapping to newhalves before! Now you forced me to confront that I've always been fapping to penises!"

My Account>Settings>Scroll Down if needed>Type "newhalf" into the blacklist box, no quotation marks>click submit

Or are you really gonna tell me that post #4512524, tagged neither newhalf nor full-package, is better specifically because you haven't looked at the other images in the character set, where they're tagged newhalf?

Veradux said:

Well, literal naming is often irrelevant to how tags get used. As such, I will edit a little note about how futa is meant to be used as an umbrella tag, as well as a tag for when none of the granular tags apply.

People using tags wrong is not a justification for continuing to use them wrong. If anything you should be striving to correct people on how to use it properly, not encouraging its incorrect use and muddying things further.

I'mma be real here:
Fuck off with this line. I'm sick of seeing it every time a futa discussion comes up. It's bullshit and has no fucking bearing on how danbooru tags.

Except it's both how the situation is and it's how the tags were used before this bizarre merger. Hell, it's still how the tags are used now.

Considering that even before the implication, a majority of newhalf images were already tagged futanari I'mma say you're wrong.

Again, people using tags wrong is not a justification for continuing to use them wrong. When I see a shitload of images of bob cuts tagged wrongly as himecuts you don't see me arguing that the tags should be linked because people are using them wrong; that would be moronic. I just correct them and go on my way.

The rest of your post is just devolving to attacks and not even addressing what was said, but allow me to rebut it anyway: I didn't say I never wanted to see newhalves at all. I just don't want to see them for no reason when searching for futanari, and vice versa. This tag link makes no sense and helps nothing, it simply forces faffing about with tag combinations in searches for no reason.

I'm not too happy with the way that the implications were handled in this whole web of tags either, but c'mon, was any of that called for? This is an art and hentai database, not your private battlegrounds for kinkshaming or anti-kinkshaming or transphobia or whatever it is you were trying to accomplish here.

Anonymaster said:

People using tags wrong is not a justification for continuing to use them wrong. If anything you should be striving to correct people on how to use it properly, not encouraging its incorrect use and muddying things further.

You're doing that now. Especially since you reverted my wiki edit. We tag newhalf as 1girl.

Except it's both how the situation is and it's how the tags were used before this bizarre merger. Hell, it's still how the tags are used now.

No, it's not now nor was it. If it was, we would've gardened out futanari from newhalf posts. Instead, we implicated and aim to make it clear that newhalf and futanari are tagged 1girl.

Again, I point to post #4512524. By your statements, we should tag that one "1girl futanari" but the other two of its set with "1boy newhalf". That makes no sense, makes it harder to find all three images, and would only bring tagging any futanari or newhalf pictures into question. Further, it would require us to start tagging all instances of character who are otherwise female but drawn as a newhalf, again like the aforementioned post, as "1boy genderswap_(ftm)". That would be utterly absurd.

Veradux said:

You're doing that now. Especially since you reverted my wiki edit. We tag newhalf as 1girl.

No, it's not now nor was it. If it was, we would've gardened out futanari from newhalf posts. Instead, we implicated and aim to make it clear that newhalf and futanari are tagged 1girl.

All you're indicating here is that there's a question on how people should've been tagging newhalf, not that newhalf should be linked to futanari. And I reverted your edit because you are taking it upon yourself to redefine an entire tag and its purpose, without even attempting to debate that like this thread did. Don't be ridiculous.

Again, I point to post #4512524. By your statements, we should tag that one "1girl futanari" but the other two of its set with "1boy newhalf". That makes no sense, makes it harder to find all three images, and would only bring tagging any futanari or newhalf pictures into question. Further, it would require us to start tagging all instances of character who are otherwise female but drawn as a newhalf, again like the aforementioned post, as "1boy genderswap_(ftm)". That would be utterly absurd.

No, by my statements that should be tagged as newhalf since it's known as a newhalf from the other images in the set. Plenty of things on this site are tagged via greater context, such as identifying characters, knowing whether a character is a girl or an otoko no ko, knowing whether something is a spoiler, etc.
It's your logic here that's arguing that that first image should be tagged as futanari, and the other images tagged as both futanari and newhalf, which makes no sense when the other images are explicitly not futanari since they lack an entire half of the futanari qualifier which is in the very name. I don't know whether you managed to massively misunderstand my arguments or whether you're deliberately misconstruing them, but neither is helpful.

Aqros161 said:

I'm not too happy with the way that the implications were handled in this whole web of tags either, but c'mon, was any of that called for? This is an art and hentai database, not your private battlegrounds for kinkshaming or anti-kinkshaming or transphobia or whatever it is you were trying to accomplish here.

I don't even know which of the two of us you're referring to, but I want tags to be defined properly, and this implication here is absolute nonsense and I will call it as such. If Danbooru's tagging becomes this illogical there will be little reason to stick with it over any other booru, since the accurate and detailed tagging has always been what I liked most about Danbooru and its userbase. And I don't know why you're even bringing up the concept of transphobia here when the futanari tag again specifies "It is not related to transgender or intersex, but is purely fantasy-based."

Can some give a tl;dr of the current debate?

In any case, newhalf and futanari are indistinguishable in most cases, so there's no point to keep the two tags completely separate and mutually exclusive when the only difference between the two is often not even visible.

As we've seen it before, if we leave it to artists to decide then we end up with people edit warring over canon.

Anonymaster said:

All you're indicating here is that there's a question on how people should've been tagging newhalf, not that newhalf should be linked to futanari. And I reverted your edit because you are taking it upon yourself to redefine an entire tag and its purpose, without even attempting to debate that like this thread did. Don't be ridiculous.

This very thread already came to the conclusion that going forward futanari will be used as an umbrella for all depictions of female characters with dicks. Veradux was redefining nothing. Don't perpetuate an edit war or this argument will end with your ban.

No, by my statements that should be tagged as newhalf since it's known as a newhalf from the other images in the set. Plenty of things on this site are tagged via greater context, such as identifying characters, knowing whether a character is a girl or an otoko no ko, knowing whether something is a spoiler, etc.
It's your logic here that's arguing that that first image should be tagged as futanari, and the other images tagged as both futanari and newhalf, which makes no sense when the other images are explicitly not futanari since they lack an entire half of the futanari qualifier which is in the very name. I don't know whether you managed to massively misunderstand my arguments or whether you're deliberately misconstruing them, but neither is helpful.

If you actually bothered to read the thread, the majority agreed that most people use futa to loosely mean any girl with a dick, whether or not they also possess a vagina and/or testicles. Most people I've met in my life have never even heard the term newhalf, and you will almost never see it on western sites, shemale or transgender being the terms English speakers would actually be familiar with, and most people consider shemale a slur and aren't willing to call a futa girl trans if they don't explicitly intend for them to be transgender.

I don't even know which of the two of us you're referring to, but I want tags to be defined properly, and this implication here is absolute nonsense and I will call it as such. If Danbooru's tagging becomes this illogical there will be little reason to stick with it over any other booru, since the accurate and detailed tagging has always been what I liked most about Danbooru and its userbase. And I don't know why you're even bringing up the concept of transphobia here when the futanari tag again specifies "It is not related to transgender or intersex, but is purely fantasy-based."

"A man with breasts and a dick" is incredibly transphobic, given that a newhalf is a man in the process of transitioning, which would in fact make them a woman. What, are we going to start tagging Poison as 1boy?

Veradux said:

As it is now, searching futanari gets you all instances of women with schlongs, whether they be no balls, balls, pussy, no pussy, weird clit dicks, or whatever else. If you want to exclude balls, you search with -testicles. If you want only ones with vagina n' cock not caring about balls, you search "futanari pussy".

Also wanted to add that futanari pussy doesn't really work that well without including solo, due to how often futas are paired with regular girls.

nonamethanks said:

Can some give a tl;dr of the current debate?

In any case, newhalf and futanari are indistinguishable in most cases, so there's no point to keep the two tags completely separate and mutually exclusive when the only difference between the two is often not even visible.

As we've seen it before, if we leave it to artists to decide then we end up with people edit warring over canon.

Anonymaster doesn't like that newhalves are being treated as futas because newhalves are actually boys and futas are specifically girls with both a pussy and dick.

blindVigil said:

This very thread already came to the conclusion that going forward futanari will be used as an umbrella for all depictions of female characters with dicks. Veradux was redefining nothing. Don't perpetuate an edit war or this argument will end with your ban.

This thread came to a conclusion without the input of people like me opposed to it, evidently. Does my opinion not count because I wasn't aware of the debate before it was resolved? Is there no possibility of this being taken back even if other people are opposed to it too?

If you actually bothered to read the thread, the majority agreed that most people use futa to loosely mean any girl with a dick, whether or not they also possess a vagina and/or testicles. Most people I've met in my life have never even heard the term newhalf, and you will almost never see it on western sites, shemale or transgender being the terms English speakers would actually be familiar with, and most people consider shemale a slur and aren't willing to call a futa girl trans if they don't explicitly intend for them to be transgender.

Once again, people using a tag wrong should not be taken as encouragement to continue using the tag wrong, and certainly not to actively change the tag definition to replace the original definition with the new incorrect one. See my previous example of bob cuts being incorrectly tagged as himecuts: would you argue that himecut should have its tag redefined to accommodate bob cuts being tagged as it? Of course not, right? They're different things with only one element connecting them at all (the blunt bangs). So why would you take that approach with futanari and newhalf?
As for the term newhalf, yes, most people obviously won't know what that is and would know it better as shemale. And people have shied away from using the term shemale because it's considered a slur. I don't know what else you expect here; Danbooru is avoiding using a slur and using a less well known alternative instead. It's exactly the same situation as trap being revised as otoko no ko, despite the former being far more well known. What do you want, exactly? Obviously futanari shouldn't be considered trans, that would make little sense when it comes to tagging, which is what this entire system is about: tagging things with concrete definitions to be able to provide as much information as possible about what's in an image and allow very selective filtering. Danbooru's entire tag system encompasses this; it's why there are a dozen hair colour tags, a dozen hair length tags, a dozen breast size tags, dozens of tags about the composition of an image, about clothing features and the minute details that distinguish one article of clothing from another, you get the idea. The entire point here is to have tags actually mean things. Changing futanari in such a way, to accommodate people who have been using the tag wrong, is erasing meaning and making it more difficult to search for what one actually wants to search for. As noted how to get the same results of "futanari" and "newhalf" searches before, I would now need to search for "futanari -newhalf" instead, and I'm not even sure what exactly for newhalf, since all newhalf posts are now implicating futanari despite not being futanari.

"A man with breasts and a dick" is incredibly transphobic, given that a newhalf is a man in the process of transitioning, which would in fact make them a woman. What, are we going to start tagging Poison as 1boy?

You'll have to forgive my being frank when talking about tag definitions on Danbooru and not actual people. And again, the latter part there should have been a discussion about how newhalf should have been tagged in relation to girl / boy identifications, not one of changing futanari's inherent meaning to accommodate.

aside from arguing about what the right or wrong definitions are, i think it would be helpful to make clear the current accepted usages of these tags,
as someone who doesn't post or search intersex characters very often, there's a fairly high chance i would make tagging mistakes on those occasions unless i had a definitive reference,

as a starting point i prepared a table which i think covers all the possible scenarios discussed here:
https://gist.github.com/bipface/b657eab07527e51cf9dbf53b1e430cfe
with one entry for each combination of sexual characteristics, whether present, absent or unseen/ambiguous,
plus a field for which tag or tags should apply in each case.

by filling-out this table, based on the result we may be able to validate the apparent taxonomy of these tags, and make it easier to select the appropriate tags for any given post.

i've been mulling over this topic for a few years now, so i'm glad to see it's getting some fresh attention

bipface said:
as a starting point i prepared a table which i think covers all the possible scenarios discussed here:
https://gist.github.com/bipface/b657eab07527e51cf9dbf53b1e430cfe
with one entry for each combination of sexual characteristics, whether present, absent or unseen/ambiguous,
plus a field for which tag or tags should apply in each case.

I think you've gone way overboard in the possibilities there. I don't think there's any scenario where you're going to see a character with testicles but no penis, for example. And the ambiguous situations typically do not call for specific tags but rather looking at the context, eg. are there other images in a set that clarify, is the same character depicted elsewhere in a way that makes their traits known (as is already done for any otoko no ko character), is the image tagged as futanari on Pixiv / Nijie / another source site, does that artist use that tag the same way it's used on Danbooru (artists on Pixiv do occasionally use the futanari tag instead of the newhalf tag when depicting the latter, despite Pixiv'x definitions being the same as Danbooru's definitions prior to this change, for example). All of those are things I would take into account when tagging and I don't consider it unreasonable.
As for what tags to be used, the futanari wiki page already had this information on it:

futanari... depicts female characters with both male and female genitalia.
Related tags
full-package futanari: penis, vagina, & testicles
male futanari: a male form with both a vagina and penis
no testicles: just the penis & vagina

See also
cuntboy: a male form with a vagina only
newhalf: a female form with a penis only
hermaphrodite: has both male and female organs, but physically androgynous

The only thing missing here is the question of what gender tags should be used in relation to these tags, which I again consider should be a separate discussion to changing the definition of futanari to become an umbrella term for things that are already defined and which have no reason to be consolidated in such a way, and I've seen no argument in this thread before or after I joined in to support doing so beyond "well sometimes people tag futanari wrong" which is an utterly absurd motivation for such a change.

That said, the very first post also provided an obvious solution to any ambiguity where context is not available to provide clear answers: changing dickgirl from an alias to futanari to instead be an umbrella term itself, which would actually make perfect sense, since dickgirl is a far more vague term that is used as such already and does not have the inherent specified meaning present in futanari's very name. I'm not sure how changing futanari to fill this role at the expense of futanari's own definition was considered a good idea. Evazion's reasoning simply boiled down to "people are using tags wrong", which, once again, should never be considered justification to change tag definitions to accommodate people using them wrong instead of telling people to tag things properly.

Anonymaster said:
I don't think there's any scenario where you're going to see a character with testicles but no penis, for example.

post #4517297
post #1110589

nonamethanks said:

post #4517297
post #1110589

The first one of those is a situation where you can only see the balls due to the angle, not one where the character clearly doesn't actually have a penis, which is what I was actually talking about. The second one of those is specifically drawing attention to it being weird, which I think makes the what tag appropriate. Unless there are actually dozens of such posts I don't think it should be worth consideration at this point.

Before this topic, Futanari and Newhalf were treated as 100% different beings. All of this discussions started because a number of users kept tagging Newhalf posts as Futanari, so naturally, it seems there was a need of a catch-all tag for both.

I agree with Anonymaster that Futanari and Newhalf should not be treated as the same thing (specially because, Futanari is a fantastic concept, while Newhalf exist in real life non-op trans woman), however I also agree that there should be a way to search all of them with one tag, as both are female-looking bodies with dick. Someone suggested dickgirl as a catch-all which is a good idea imo, because it essentially makes both Futanari and Newhalf separate as they should be, while at the same time an user can search them all with just "dickgirl".

Implicating Newhalf into Futanari essentially makes Newhalf a subset of Futanari which I'm not really against for the reason: Futanari is much more popular than Newhalf in arts, both are essentially girls with dicks. That's what was voted and approved. However, it generated a little problem, post #4093993 is clearly about gender transitioning and depicts a Newhalf, apparently. This post clearly don't have nothing to do with Futanari at all and reinforces that Newhalf are more "Boys with Breasts" than "Girls with Dicks". There may be more cases like this where it gets more messed up...

Anonymaster said:

The first one of those is a situation where you can only see the balls due to the angle, not one where the character clearly doesn't actually have a penis, which is what I was actually talking about. The second one of those is specifically drawing attention to it being weird, which I think makes the what tag appropriate. Unless there are actually dozens of such posts I don't think it should be worth consideration at this point.

There's actually a few more, which are hard to find because of mistags, like post #890984, but dickless futanari are actually not that rare as far as super niche ones go. I'm sure there's at least a dozen or so on danbooru because I've seen them over the years, but I wouldn't be able to find all of them right now without sorting through thousands of posts.
A common trope is for tanuki/raccoon girls to have huge balls but no dick because of the bake-danuki.

nonamethanks said:

There's actually a few more, which are hard to find because of mistags, like post #890984, but dickless futanari are actually not that rare as far as super niche ones go. I'm sure there's at least a dozen or so on danbooru because I've seen them over the years, but I wouldn't be able to find all of them right now without sorting through thousands of posts.
A common trope is for tanuki/raccoon girls to have huge balls but no dick because of the bake-danuki.

That one is another example of the dick being hidden by the angle / pose, not the character not having the dick at all. If you look at the Pixiv description Uno Makoto even says in it that he couldn't draw the dick because it was hidden by the balls in this pose. I don't see any reason that such images should have a different tag for them, but yes, I suppose if there are a few dozen images of tanuki-derived characters where the character clearly only has balls and no dick then it may be worth creating a new tag for that, since none of the existing tags fit, though it could also be argued that the bake-danuki tag itself is sufficient.
Doesn't really have to do with the futanari tag's definition, though.

Anonymaster said:
If you look at the Pixiv description Uno Makoto even says in it that he couldn't draw the dick because it was hidden by the balls in this pose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't look like the right translation. To me it seems he's saying that he doesn't usually draws vaginas because they're hidden by balls in futanari characters (「たまにはおまんまんも描け！」 -> 巨玉にするとすぐ隠れちゃうので中々描く機会がありません), it doesn't mention anything about dicks.

In any case, these count as futanari too. It's just a weird spin on the concept, almost like a parody of it, but it still gets tagged as futanari on pixiv and similar sites.

nonamethanks said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't look like the right translation. To me it seems he's saying that he doesn't usually draws vaginas because they're hidden by balls in futanari characters (「たまにはおまんまんも描け！」 -> 巨玉にするとすぐ隠れちゃうので中々描く機会がありません), it doesn't mention anything about dicks.

In any case, these count as futanari too. It's just a weird spin on the concept, almost like a parody of it, but it still gets tagged as futanari on pixiv and similar sites.

It could be like that, my Japanese isn't great, but Uno Makoto has drawn various vaginas in his time, and I don't recall ever seeing him drawing a character without a dick, so I'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's just obscured there rather than entirely absent. There's really nothing to indicate we should believe that it is entirely absent.
https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts?tags=uno_makoto+pussy
Also, that previous Mamizou image isn't actually tagged as futanari on Pixiv: https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/22681912

If anything I suppose there could be a new tag for genitals_partly_obscured or something, which could be applied even outside of the futanari tag.

mongirlfan said:
Implicating Newhalf into Futanari essentially makes Newhalf a subset of Futanari which I'm not really against for the reason: Futanari is much more popular than Newhalf in arts, both are essentially girls with dicks. That's what was voted and approved. However, it generated a little problem, post #4093993 is clearly about gender transitioning and depicts a Newhalf, apparently. This post clearly don't have nothing to do with Futanari at all and reinforces that Newhalf are more "Boys with Breasts" than "Girls with Dicks". There may be more cases like this where it gets more messed up...

That image is an obvious mistag going against TWYS. Transgender is the only tag needed, as the person who tagged it newhalf was wrong in the first place and the BUR doesn't change that. That user has a history of mistagging futanari.

There's a lot of mistake tagging in transgender, futanari, newhalf, and all subsets of them. I've seen and fixed boatloads of images tagged "2boys paizuri futanari newhalf transgender genderswap_(mtf) otoko_no_ko yaoi hetero". post #1786727, if you want to see the wacky edit history.

The problem with associating newhalf with the real life concept of pre-operation male-to-female transgender is that the vast majority of newhalf art is just female characters whom the artist decided to draw with dick, balls, and no vagina, making it practically no different from futanari. There's usually not a single hint of the character being a boy who went through a transition of sorts, they just grew a dick and balls, or they're like that just because. Earlier we talked about the idea of a way to tag characters who are canonical newhalves, but it seems nothing came from it.

It should also be noticed that definitions are not set in stone, neither in this site or in general. The definition of words changes according to how people use them, and the anime community is prone to using Japanese words in a different sense than their original meaning. Thus, even though the word futanari originally meant a character with both male and female genitalia (as reflected by its etymology), the West eventually took it to mean any form of dickgirl. This is why I don't think people tagging newhalf as futanari to begin with were misusing the tag, it just means that for them there was no practical difference. Tags are meant to be useful, and most people didn't find the distinction between futanari and newhalf to be useful, hence this topic.

mongirlfan said:

However, it generated a little problem, post #4093993 is clearly about gender transitioning and depicts a Newhalf, apparently. This post clearly don't have nothing to do with Futanari at all and reinforces that Newhalf are more "Boys with Breasts" than "Girls with Dicks". There may be more cases like this where it gets more messed up...

In this case, I decided to remove the newhalf tag, because there's no visual confirmation of the character's exact genitals (besides a hint of a bulge which is why I didn't remove futanari altogether).