imply mittens -> gloves

BUR #4970 has been rejected.

The wiki for mittens says "By definition they're not considered gloves.". By whose definition? Google says it's "a glove with two sections, one for the thumb and the other for all four fingers.". If you search "oven mitts definition" on google it even redirects you to "oven glove".

What's more, we have a lot of colored mittens tags, but they're a very mixed bags. With the exception of brown mittens, they all have comparable or fewer results than the correspondent *_gloves mittens search - some examples:

brown mittens: 156 posts
brown_gloves mittens: 79 posts

white mittens: 258 posts
white_gloves mittens: 215 posts

black mittens: 73 posts
black_gloves mittens: 198 posts

As people don't seem to have an issue with using colored_gloves tags with mittens, I really don't think we should enforce this distinction. They're garments that encompass the whole hand, they're gloves. If mittens aren't gloves, fingerless gloves aren't gloves either.

Gloves are typically defined as individually covering each finger separately, this is why mittens aren't gloves.

Merriam-Webster

1a: a covering for the hand having separate sections for each of the fingers and the thumb and often extending part way up the arm
1b: gauntlet

wiktionary

1. An item of clothing other than a mitten, covering all or part of the hand and fingers, but usually allowing independent movement of the fingers.

Lexico

1. A covering for the hand worn for protection against cold or dirt and typically having separate parts for each finger and the thumb.

Dictionary.com

1. a covering for the hand made with a separate sheath for each finger and for the thumb.

I can't say I've heard anyone use the term "oven gloves" for "oven mitts."

We can argue about dictionary definitions all day.
Definitions of "mitten":

Cambridge Dictionary
a type of glove with a single part for all the fingers and a separate part for the thumb

Oxford Languages (google definition)
a glove with two sections, one for the thumb and the other for all four fingers.

Lexico
A glove with two sections, one for the thumb and the other for all four fingers.

Wikitionary
A type of glove or garment that covers a hand with a separate sheath for the thumb, but not for other fingers, which are either enclosed in a single section or left uncovered.

What matters is how it's used on danbooru. People tag them with colored_gloves and understand them as gloves. They're gloves. Forcing a distinction is pedantic, and it does not reflect real world usage.

NWF_Renim said:

Gloves are typically defined as individually covering each finger separately, this is why mittens aren't gloves.

Ah, nnt was right, then. Fingerless gloves are not gloves, then.

I can't say I've heard anyone use the term "oven gloves" for "oven mitts."

I have. They're usually used for handling logs instead of ovens, though.

There're plenty of gloves that only cover one finger, or separate them two and two. Even these are labeled as high fashion men's gloves.

I think this is a case where we have to decide between de jure and de facto. And I'm leaning toward de facto. Especially because de jure is extremely inconsistent here.

It appears to be a cultural difference then, because looking at the US dictionaries they do clearly define mittens as more often than not as "a covering for the hand and wrist having a separate section for the thumb only" with no mention of gloves. In UK definitions that tend to frequently call them "gloves" in their definition.

nonamethanks said:

Forcing a distinction is pedantic, and it does not reflect real world usage.

That's pretty dismissive given that real world usage is influenced by your locality, and there are definitely localities where this distinction is very much their real world usage in saying they wouldn't call mittens as gloves.

Veradux said:

Ah, nnt was right, then. Fingerless gloves are not gloves, then.

Not really, they still have separate coverings or parts for each finger. They might not completely cover the fingers but they still have separate portions for each finger. Unless you're thinking of like one of those guards for the back of your hand that doesn't cover any of the fingers.

Veradux said:

I think this is a case where we have to decide between de jure and de facto. And I'm leaning toward de facto. Especially because de jure is extremely inconsistent here.

Can just tally up the votes and see where this lands in the end then.

If all thighhighs, kneesocks, socks, and pantyhose got compressed into legwear, all hand-wear should be compressed to gloves. There's also things like the ove glove , which I have heard people interchangeably refer to it as a mitten, glove, or mitt. I don't see the use in having separate color tags for every style of something.

Shouldn't the <color>_glove tags be replaced with <color>_handwear tags to match the <color>_footwear tags? The whole reason this proposal is being made is because we're not using a neutral <color>_handwear tags which forces people to use <color>_gloves for every type of handwear.

Another thing to note, if we keep expanding what falls under gloves, at some point won't we need a tag for just regular plain gloves?

Gloves has 610k posts, while mittens has 10k posts. You don't really need to exclude mittens to see gloves if it's implicated, because with 20 posts per page there'll be an average of one mitten every three pages of gloves.

For the handwear tags, we might have to go down that route anyway eventually due to bridal gauntlets and other edge cases.

With neutral <color>_handwear tags though it becomes unnecessary to implicate mittens to gloves, since gloves and mittens are visually distinct from each other.

NWF_Renim said:

With neutral <color>_handwear tags though it becomes unnecessary to implicate mittens to gloves, since gloves and mittens are visually distinct from each other.

Well, we go back to the start then, since I made this BUR because I think mittens are gloves.

nonamethanks said:

Well, we go back to the start then, since I made this BUR because I think mittens are gloves.

That's nothing more than making the gloves tag the same thing as a handwear tag then.

NWF_Renim said:

That's nothing more than making the gloves tag the same thing as a handwear tag then.

No, because that would include things like the already mentioned bridal gauntlets, for which the distinction from gloves is much stronger, given that they often don't even have actual fingers.

nonamethanks said:
What's more, we have a lot of colored mittens tags, but they're a very mixed bags. With the exception of brown mittens, they all have comparable or fewer results than the correspondent *_gloves mittens search - some examples:

brown mittens: 156 posts
brown_gloves mittens: 79 posts

white mittens: 258 posts
white_gloves mittens: 215 posts

black mittens: 73 posts
black_gloves mittens: 198 posts

Just to ask, did you actually look at those tag combinations before posting that?

Because at least for black_gloves mittens the vast majority are where there are both in the same image, be it on different characters (post #3888040 or post #3725446) or the same character (post #4300408 and presumably post #3150474 although meta knowledge says these are arm warmers rather than gloves). There may even be more outright mistags (post #2599972 is neither black nor gloves) than cases where what is clearly black mittens are tagged as black_gloves in there. I'd guess the number of the latter to be in the teens.

skylightcrystal said:

Just to ask, did you actually look at those tag combinations before posting that?

I did not look at every single post, but looking at various solo/multiple_views searches now it doesn't look like the relative amount of posts changes. In some cases I'm even seeing people tagging color gloves for both mittens and gloves in the same picture.

white_gloves mittens status:any -*_mittens
white_gloves status:any *_mittens

It's not whether or not you looked at every post but whether you even glanced at the images in question.

Going through every single post in white_gloves status:any *_mittens gives:
24 both white gloves and mittens in the image
1 neither
1 with red mittens present and tagged, and white gloves not present but tagged presumably because the char wears them usually
1 with mittens visible and some white hand covering which you can't tell whether it's gloves or mittens
1 comic where the art style makes it look like gloves in some panels but mittens in others
and just 1 picture (post #2606225) which is tagged in the way you describe. That's 1 in 29 posts.

You don't have to go through every post with that sort of ratio to realise that the images are not as you are describing them. The proportion of images as you described in black_gloves mittens was only slightly higher.

--

edit:

Incidentally, there are 14 of the 31 images in black_gloves mittens solo where either black gloves is being used to refer to black mittens or mittens is being used to refer to gloves (excluding a couple of cases where both are tagging the same thing but it's unclear which it is). In 20 of the 166 non-solo posts I didn't find a single example.

I explained myself wrong.

I was going to write an example about white_gloves mittens status:any -*_mittens because I went through every post in the first 100 and most of them had white mittens, but I realize at this point the BUR is never going to pass since it ended up being about semantics, so arguing here is just wasted time.

I also ended up going on a tagging tangent while writing the example and found hundreds of posts where mittens were tagged with "gloves" instead, which makes arguing about numbers even more pointless and convinces me that people don't understand or don't care about a mutually exclusive distinction.

I'll just reject the BUR since it's going nowhere, someone else can request the creation of a handwear tag if they care about it.

The bulk update request #4970 (forum #182473) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.