Transgender characters

I just want to point out that all the discussions about sex and gender are irrelevant in front of the main purpose of danbooru: being able to search what you want.

If you're searching for otoko no ko, you know what you want, you want to search for crossdressing androgynous dudes. You know it's dudes, you aren't under the impression they're girls, otherwise it loses all the appeal. Tagging them with female tags goes against having the tag in the first point.
Likewise, if you're searching for 1girl, you don't want to see stuff like post #3986394 (which was tagged as 1girl before because the character refers to itself as female).
And as unbreakable said, futanari are girls because some people don't want to see guys in their porn. They're chicks with dicks and they should be tagged as such.

nonamethanks said:

Likewise, if you're searching for 1girl, you don't want to see stuff like post #3986394 (which was tagged as 1girl before because the character refers to itself as female).

I mean... Oogami Sakura is a girl too, but I see your point.
However, of the examples I listed in the original post, you literally wouldn't be able to tell that they're transgender unless you looked it up.

Me and Damian were discussing a hypothetical transgender tag to go in tandem with the newhalf tag. Therefore, people who don't want to see these type of characters can just blacklist that tag. It'll only be used on characters from an established copyright, unless the creator of an OC explicitly says the character is trans or whatever.

Thoughts?

sabisabi said:

I mean... Oogami Sakura is a girl too, but I see your point.
However, of the examples I listed in the original post, you literally wouldn't be able to tell that they're transgender unless you looked it up.

Me and Damian were discussing a hypothetical transgender tag to go in tandem with the newhalf tag. Therefore, people who don't want to see these type of characters can just blacklist that tag. It'll only be used on characters from an established copyright, unless the creator of an OC explicitly says the character is trans or whatever.

Thoughts?

I'm pretty much in full agreement with what nonamethanks said just before me about why we tag things how we tag them. For me it's not at all about wanting to blacklist this type of characters, but it's about ease and convenience of search which is what a place like Danbooru should be striving for.

Personally speaking I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the creation of a transgender tag, but it would have to be very strictly applied only to characters that are explicitly, canonically stated to be trans, or it would be a slippery slope wherein people may start arguing (as has already been the case for years in other places, including editing wars on Wikipedia) that this or that character is transgender without much or any canonical basis - for example arguing that Astolfo is transgender because he crossdresses and his FGO profile makes a dumb joke about his gender. I don't know how much use it would really have as a tag.

Astolfo said:
or it would be a slippery slope wherein people may start arguing (as has already been the case for years in other places, including editing wars on Wikipedia) that this or that character is transgender without much or any canonical basis - for example arguing that Astolfo is transgender because he crossdresses and his FGO profile makes a dumb joke about his gender. I don't know how much use it would really have as a tag.

That's what I'm worried about as well, that a hypotetical transgender tag would be used as an arbitrary replacement for crossdressing.

Astolfo said:

Personally speaking I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the creation of a transgender tag, but it would have to be very strictly applied only to characters that are explicitly, canonically stated to be trans, or it would be a slippery slope wherein people may start arguing (as has already been the case for years in other places, including editing wars on Wikipedia) that this or that character is transgender without much or any canonical basis - for example arguing that Astolfo is transgender because he crossdresses and his FGO profile makes a dumb joke about his gender. I don't know how much use it would really have as a tag.

nonamethanks said:

That's what I'm worried about as well, that a hypotetical transgender tag would be used as an arbitrary replacement for crossdressing.

Well, that's the only way a transgender tag would make sense, no? It would have to be very strictly applied to only characters that are explicitly, canonically stated to be trans, otherwise it would just dilute the tag and render it unusable. Anyone who actually wants to find transgender characters wouldn't want to see Astolfo pop up in their search, for instance.

I'd also give a suggestion on the tag also applying to characters who are consistently portrayed as trans. Now, that makes sense when considering the previous point, but the reason it has to be said out loud is due to characters like Ensemble Stars' Narukami Arashi, due to his inconsistent characterization by way of that game's events being written by different people, thus resulting in debates on whether he's a feminine male, homosexual or trans. The unclear nature of this example would necessitate at least verbally pointing out that, no, such a character doesn't apply because he's not consistently portrayed as trans (on top of not being explicitly stated to be trans).

Lol we’re doing this thread again. I’ll finally put my thoughts out there for the forum since this remains a persistent and unresolved problem. I agree with it being an issue tagging trans characters in a way that contradicts their identity. First gonna respond to some preceding arguments but then get into some more substantive stuff.

First, OP outlined what I think are some good examples on why present policy has some issues. Can any of those still against making changes point out perhaps specific cases that could have problems?

I think for the most part the userbase and contributors are very comfortable with tags like futanari and newhalf and how sex tags for these are quantified. Interestingly these tags aren’t points of contention, except in threads such as these where it appears some are willing to try and make them comport to a natal view of sex in order that it be applicable to trans characters.

Animes don’t have chromosomes! But to that end, of strange biology arguments about anime, hormones play a significant role in sex, given that most trans people take hormones or block them during their pre-adolescence if able, this qualifies trans characters as their chosen sex. If testosterone has been suppressed in one's body and been replaced with natal female levels of hormones, that leads to significant feminization long term; you probably even work or go to school with trans people and don't know it they pass so successfully as their preferred sex (trust me you'd be surprised). Additionally, specific 'male' aspects to one's physique doesn't make a character non-female per se, it highlights characteristics of many trans people and their struggles with bodily representation, it adds rather than takes away.

sabisabi said:

Meta knowledge is already used to determine gender.
If you showed post #4098470 to someone with no knowledge of Fate, what gender would they think he was? Astolfo is "overwhelmingly girlish", and yet, he's a boy.

As I understand, however, isn't this character introduced as a boy and self-identifies as such? Calling them female would be a contradiction. One can certainly take on female attributes and social representation and not view oneself as one.

sabisabi said:
Me and Damian were discussing a hypothetical transgender tag to go in tandem with the newhalf tag. Therefore, people who don't want to see these type of characters can just blacklist that tag. It'll only be used on characters from an established copyright, unless the creator of an OC explicitly says the character is trans or whatever.

Thoughts?

Great idea! I think such as tag is a good idea, and should be cultivated with the aim of cataloging actually verifiable trans characters. Many people make one of two mistakes, either rejecting the idea of trans characters categorically and saying anything with a pee pee is a boy, or to think that every otoko no ko or cat girl is trans excellence. Both are ridiculous extremes, but a careful definition could be useful both in terms of trans representation but also in documenting information about characters and their backgrounds.

Now let me outline my proposed policy for tagging 'trans' characters in clear terms. I will refer to the 'sex' argument as "natal sex tagging" and my proposal as "creator-identification" sex tagging or slight variations.

• Characters, for purpose of 1girl, 1boy, 1other, et cetera counted as the gender which they are introduced as—either within in a series or by an artist. That should, in general, be the final word and should include nude depictions.

Using creator-identification, the issue of spoilers is resolved quite well by creator identification, comporting to the background information and existing tagging policy on Lily from Zombie Land Saga Natal, however, sex requires some sort of revision, or ad hoc exceptions, lending to the inconsistency of that policy, creator ID requires no revision.

• Using natal sex for tagging 1boy, 1girl, 1other is contradictory & contradictory

To begin with, knowing the 'sex' of a character is not straightforward. It requires encyclopedic knowledge of a character when aspects about them may be revealed mid-season or are not known for sure until the conclusion of a series, sometimes as important plot elements. A policy is not exactly useful if a mid season reveal or a minor fact about a character requires such revision. Using the natal sex basis for tagging requires us to either go back and revise how a character has been previously tagged, possibly including creating a separate character for their post-reveal representation, or we're left creating an entirely ad hoc exception such as in the Zombie Land Saga hell, which brings into question how this standard is at all either easy to fallow or consistent in comparison to creator-identification.

• Using natal sex is not useful for searchers

When people search for girls, they're looking for girls. See the highlighted characters in the OP which continue to be errantly tagged as males.

• Clarification on otoko no ko

Otoko no ko characters are not trans women. A valid concern people have is mass changes to policy concerning this tag. Otoko no ko is a distinctively Japanese custom for presenting effeminate males and when uploaders use that tag we can surmise that they're identifying a character as male unless stated otherwise. I suggest aliasing this tag to "femboy" as was proposed previously, in order to lay out and reify this distinction, in order to make it both easier to tag and understand this concept and to let people know it's not intended to be the same category as trans women.

Ultimately with my proposed method of quantifying sex tags, not much will change. Explicitly trans characters will receive sex tags comporting to their expressed gender. Non-explicit trans characters (e.g., Astolfo), will not. Characters will be assumed to be the gender which they immediately appear as, unless their creator introduces them otherwise.

Artist intent may also be inferred, such as with use of the transgender flag. To those who are for enforcing a natal sex basis for tag, would you propose tagging images under transgender_flag 1girl as 1boy as they're inferred to be trans women?

chilled_sake said:

As I understand, however, isn't this character introduced as a boy and self-identifies as such? Calling them female would be a contradiction. One can certainly take on female attributes and social representation and not view oneself as one.

Ah, yeah! I didn't mean to imply that Astolfo is trans, or anything like that. Just that there are times where you can't tell the gender of a character just by looking at them. There were some people who brought up that you would need meta knowledge to tag them as their correct gender, but that's a non-issue considering how we already do that.

sabisabi said:

Ah, yeah! I didn't mean to imply that Astolfo is trans, or anything like that. Just that there are times where you can't tell the gender of a character just by looking at them. There were some people who brought up that you would need meta knowledge to tag them as their correct gender, but that's a non-issue considering how we already do that.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

But yes it's a great point that the current method is very context and lore based.

chilled_sake said:

But yes it's a great point that the current method is very context and lore based.

Isn't your proposition just as context-based? Images with identical content can be tagged as 1boy+otoko_no_ko or as 1girl+transgender based purely on outside info.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "tag as introduced" break in case of characters like charlotte_dunois, who (as far as I know) was introduced as male?

Should post #3818871 really be tagged 1boy? I'm seeing a lot of this character with that gender, despite basically being a newhalf. Seems there's plenty of similar cases under the transgender tag now.

Edit: also mariandale.

The main point of the tags being to be able to search for pictures, I believe we should tag accordingly to what we can safely assume a user would want to find.

I don't think anyone would search for 1boy and hope to find post #3818871.

Honestly, it just seems like it'll result in a huge mess of tagging errors and exceptions that make it harder to find characters and images.

...which it is.

I think transgender tag should be reserved for pictures that reference the fact of characters being trans, like post #3934361.

The transgender tag is going become a mess at this point, specially if it gets mixed with newhalf like this. At first it was for characters that identifies themselves with the opposite gender they are born, but kirihara torajyuro tatsumune still indetifies as a male. So that would make they a transexual but not a transgender, right?

To sort this mess: kirihara torajyuro tatsumune gets tagged as a female/newhalf but not as transgender, simple TWYS. The mere fact that Newhalf are transsexual don't mean they are also transgender.

Now for the transgender tag: it should be tagged for posts referencing characters being transgender (as per worldendDominator's suggestion); or maintain how it is right now: for characters that simply identify with the opposite gender they were born with (this information should be 100% canon).

Trans women are women and should be tagged as such. If a character isn't a male they should not be tagged with a male and vice versa.

fawdable said:

it's not based off genitals, it's based off sex. The sex of the characters are still female (XX chromosome), they just have grown a dick by whatever means.

And trans women are women despite their penis. But I guess it's OK to ensure that you're not gay by fapping to a "male" body so you've got to make sure they're tagged as a "girl".

This is some disgusting logic.

Pata-Hikari said:

This is some disgusting logic.

You're in a porn site for weebs. Nobody here wants to see buff dudes with dicks when they search for 1girl solo.

We're using the same principle every other porn and fetish site uses. We cater to users before everyone else. Go ahead and complain to Pornhub that trans porn shouldn't have its own category, see how that works out.

mongirlfan said:

Now for the transgender tag: it should be tagged for posts referencing characters being transgender (as per worldendDominator's suggestion)

I'm going to third this. Tag it if it's a visible theme in the image; otherwise just tag the image as ngirl(s)/nboy(s)/nother(s) according to presented gender.

nonamethanks said:

You're in a porn site for weebs. Nobody here wants to see buff dudes with dicks when they search for 1girl solo.

We're using the same principle every other porn and fetish site uses. We cater to users before everyone else. Go ahead and complain to Pornhub that trans porn shouldn't have its own category, see how that works out.

The only examples I know of "buff dude"-looking characters considered trans women are Hikiishi Kenji and Ladiva, who appear on a combined total of 17 posts. At this current point in time, it would be far more likely to come across other shocking tags like guro or scat. Or more fittingly, girls who look like boys ("reverse trap"), or girls with added male genitalia (futanari).

There doesn't have to be a one-sided choice between no distinction for visibly trans characters, or just complete denial that a character is trans. I think most of us would agree that trans characters should have some way to be found and categorized, right?

agglego2 said:

The only examples I know of "buff dude"-looking characters considered trans women are Hikiishi Kenji and Ladiva, who appear on a combined total of 17 posts. At this current point in time, it would be far more likely to come across other shocking tags like guro or scat. Or more fittingly, girls who look like boys ("reverse trap"), or girls with added male genitalia (futanari).

Tagging something like this with 1girl is just never going to happen. If you cannot understand that simple truth of internet imageboards then there's nothing else I can say.
And for the record it's been proposed several time to tag futanari as 1other instead of 1girl because people simply hate to see dicks when they search for 1girl solo.

agglego2 said:

There doesn't have to be a one-sided choice between no distinction for visibly trans characters, or just complete denial that a character is trans. I think most of us would agree that trans characters should have some way to be found and categorized, right?

That way already exists by googling "list of transgender characters". It's not a concept that is usable on danbooru because there's no visual differences between a transgender character and, say, an otoko no ko or a crossdressing character, unless transitioning medication is visible in the picture.

Sorry may I ask for clarification here?

This character yuki from princess connect has been tagged as 1boy. A comment from this post justifies it by saying that an event happens where yuki is seen nude. However, I am not familiar with the details and I'm not sure if even such context overrules tag what you see. I am aware that yuki in the real world of princess connect is male as seen in posts like this so understandably in that form yuki should be tagged 1boy. But should that apply to his game avatar which definitely looks female?