Transgender characters

I know this has been brought up countless times before (namely topic #16143, topic #15770, topic #10990, etc) but I want to bring it to attention once more.
I've noticed several transgender characters (mtf) like Aoi Futaba, Grell Sutcliff, and Alluka Zoldyck have been historically tagged as "male".
In Grell's case, she always refers to herself as female, even as far as saying she wants a "sex change." And despite all that, every image I checked of her has her listed as "1boy" and "otoko no ko".
There's a clear difference between transgender characters and characters that are otoko no ko. For otoko no ko, they're just boys that crossdress with no deeper meaning. Including transwomen in a search for otoko no ko is misleading, harmful, downright stupid, and also literally not what the term means.

Also, I've heard that Kino is nonbinary, but I haven't seen the show myself to confirm it. If so, then that would make Kino another character that has been mistagged to hell and back.

1boy and 1girl are used for tagging sex, not gender; that's really all there is to it. This approach is more appropriate for a "tag what you see" tagging structure, as gender is a meta element to an image. Ideally, which you use is identified by the character's genitals, but, since this isn't always possible, it's often necessary to fall back on the character's canon sex or how masculine and feminine their remaining body structure is. 1other exists as a fall back in case this is too ambiguous, so that every person is still counted.

Obstetrics said:

1boy and 1girl are used for tagging sex, not gender; that's really all there is to it. This approach is more appropriate for a "tag what you see" tagging structure, as gender is a meta element to an image. Ideally, which you use is identified by the character's genitals, but, since this isn't always possible, it's often necessary to fall back on the character's canon sex or how masculine and feminine their remaining body structure is. 1other exists as a fall back in case this is too ambiguous, so that every person is still counted.

Despite what you're saying, futanari is commonly tagged as 1girl, 2girls, and et cetera, and this is clearly not based on sex.

Obstetrics said:

1boy and 1girl are used for tagging sex, not gender; that's really all there is to it. This approach is more appropriate for a "tag what you see" tagging structure, as gender is a meta element to an image. Ideally, which you use is identified by the character's genitals, but, since this isn't always possible, it's often necessary to fall back on the character's canon sex or how masculine and feminine their remaining body structure is. 1other exists as a fall back in case this is too ambiguous, so that every person is still counted.

If it's based off genitals, then why are newhalf and futanari pictures not tagged as men?

sabisabi said:

If it's based off genitals, then why are newhalf and futanari pictures not tagged as men?

You can argue that they should be tagged as men if you'd like, but both futanari and newhalf don't fall cleanly into one sex or the other. If anything, I think you'd have a much easier time arguing that they should be tagged as 1other.

明るい狐 said:

Despite what you're saying, futanari is commonly tagged as 1girl, 2girls, and et cetera, and this is clearly not based on sex.

sabisabi said:

If it's based off genitals, then why are newhalf and futanari pictures not tagged as men?

I wrote "ideally", not exclusively. You should take the entire body structure into account. If a character has a dick, but their sex is otherwise overwhelmingly girlish, then tagging 1girl futanari is appropriate. The only time the line gets blurry is when the character naturally has short hair, a flat chest, muscles etc... which makes genderswap (ftm) a possibility. The point is to avoid meta elements in tagging when given an alternative, because the character's body is more important than how they feel psychologically when tagging what you see.

sabisabi said:

If it's based off genitals, then why are newhalf and futanari pictures not tagged as men?

it's not based off genitals, it's based off sex. The sex of the characters are still female (XX chromosome), they just have grown a dick by whatever means.

Zurreak said:

You can argue that they should be tagged as men if you'd like, but both futanari and newhalf don't fall cleanly into one sex or the other. If anything, I think you'd have a much easier time arguing that they should be tagged as 1other.

I beg to differ, newhalf only shows signs of male sex organs, no female ones. So if we're going by what sex is visible they would be tagged as 1boy and the like, not 1other. My point is less that some forms of futanari should have 1boy and et cetera tags but I instead personally believe that the tags currently given should focus more on the gender we can perceive, whenever this be by appearance or knowledge about the character in question.

Obstetrics said:

I wrote "ideally", not exclusively. You should take the entire body structure into account. If a character has a dick, but their sex is otherwise overwhelmingly girlish, then tagging 1girl futanari is appropriate. The only time the line gets blurry is when the character naturally has short hair, a flat chest, muscles etc... which makes genderswap (ftm) a possibility. The point is to avoid meta elements in tagging when given an alternative, because the character's body is more important than how they feel psychologically when tagging what you see.

The things you stated are factors of hormones, not sex. Now you could argue that hormones usually play a part in sex, but still genitalia and internal organs do as well, so male gentalia would directly contradict the 1girl tag and et cetera. Given this logic futanari should primarily be tagged as 1other. Personally not what I would ideally like but would make sense given what most people are tagging by.

fawdable said:

it's not based off genitals, it's based off sex. The sex of the characters are still female (XX chromosome), they just have grown a dick by whatever means.

Sex is still genitals, you can't have a dick and say you're of the female sex, it does not work like that. However, yes, chromosomes do play a part in sex, yet, what appears to be a primar statement in these debates is that you tag based on what you see, and you cannot see chromosomes. You can argue that the body looks female, but things like hormone treatment and surgery can cause one to look like futanari characters.

Meta knowledge is already used to determine gender.
If you showed post #4098470 to someone with no knowledge of Fate, what gender would they think he was? Astolfo is "overwhelmingly girlish", and yet, he's a boy.

I should also further mention that tagging based on a female body appearance would land a lot of characters mostly tagged as boys as girls. An overwhelming amount of astolfo_(fate) artwork shows him having a body incapable of having without being more estrogen than testosterone producing. Saying that he is flat does not void this neither, since being flat does not necessarily mean that one does not have a female body type.

You can see it like this, Futanari are girls who magically got a dick (hence why they are treated as girls), while Newhalf are more like boys with boobs, a (male-to-female) transgender woman specifically, and they are typically (but not always) tagged as girls for two main reasons: female-like body, and wanting to be treated as female gender being the whole point of male-to-female transgenderism. This is also the reason why I believe the Newhalf tag shouldn't be only TWYS but also tagged with some context by the artist, as they exist in real life, opposed to futanari. And also for the same reason why Otoko no Ko aren't strict TWYS.

I am firmly against tagging futanari as 1other, it's literally a girl with an added dick because people don't want dudes in their porn.

mongirlfan said:

You can see it like this, Futanari are girls who magically got a dick (hence why they are treated as girls), while Newhalf are more like boys with boobs, a (male-to-female) transgender woman specifically, and they are typically (but not always) tagged as girls for two main reasons: female-like body, and wanting to be treated as female gender being the whole point of male-to-female transgenderism. This is also the reason why I believe the Newhalf tag shouldn't be only TWYS but also tagged with some context by the artist, as they exist in real life, opposed to futanari. And also for the same reason why Otoko no Ko aren't strict TWYS.

Futanari technically does exist in real life, as there are people born with both a penis and a vagina. But never near to the extent of the majority of futanari porn. I do believe that futanari should continued to be tagged as 1girl and so forth, my only point is that it contradicts a lot of what people are saying tagging is based on. Or if not tagged as 1girl 1other would work as well in my opinion. But I do agree with a lot that you are saying.

I would like to state my personal opinions. I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea of what I want, a lot of stuff I say probably gives people the wrong ideas of my opinions. I'm just saying a lot of shit since a lot of stuff being said contradicts the rule of tagging by sex. Anyway, I think that transgender women should be moreso based upon "tag-what-you-see" logic, and tagging in general should fall upon this logic, with the exception of otoko_no_ko, which is mainly tagged by the exact opposite of such.

明るい狐 said:

Futanari technically does exist in real life, as there are people born with both a penis and a vagina. But never near to the extent of the majority of futanari porn. I do believe that futanari should continued to be tagged as 1girl and so forth, my only point is that it contradicts a lot of what people are saying tagging is based on. Or if not tagged as 1girl 1other would work as well in my opinion. But I do agree with a lot that you are saying.

Actually no, these are hermaphrodite/intersex which are in general treated as 1other. Futanari is simply a girl with dick, a different and more fantastical concept that isn't based on real life or related to being born as a hermaphrodite. There's also no logic or realistic explanation to why futanari have or got their dicks, they simply have, contrary to hermaphrodite and newhalf. This is why strict TWYS rules should be used when tagging futanari. Otoko no Ko and Newhalf exist in real life so context by the artist or indicators in the art itself should be used along with TWYS for these.

mongirlfan said:

Actually no, these are hermaphrodite/intersex which are in general treated as 1other. Futanari is simply a girl with dick, a different and more fantastical concept that isn't based on real life or related to being born as a hermaphrodite. This is why strict TWYS rules should be used when tagging futanari. Otoko no Ko and Newhalf exist in real life so context by the artist should be used along with TWYS for these.

Understandable, I agree now. Sorry for the inconvenience.

明るい狐 said:

Anyway, I think that transgender women should be moreso based upon "tag-what-you-see" logic.

What exactly is it that we're seeing, though? You can't see gender itself, merely some means by which it can manifest. However, those means are never (under any circumstances) exclusive to one person or another. To provide some examples of this: some people crossdress, some women are super-into sports, some men might be very empathetic towards others' feelings. These are obvious examples, but they're simply intended to illustrate the point that nothing which is associated with one gender or the other is exclusive to that gender.
If we were to actually implement this by "tag what you see", then cisgender people with absolutely no gender ambiguity whatsoever would not at all be exempted from it. We would have to ascertain what gender we actually see in that image itself. And of course, canonically transgender characters who also have no ambiguity would be the same case. I'm fairly certain no one wants that, but correct me if I'm wrong.

All this is to say that "tag what you know" will continue to be a necessity when tagging either gender or biological sex under any reasonable implementation.

Zurreak said:

What exactly is it that we're seeing, though? You can't see gender itself, merely some means by which it can manifest. However, those means are never (under any circumstances) exclusive to one person or another. To provide some examples of this: some people crossdress, some women are super-into sports, some men might be very empathetic towards others' feelings. These are obvious examples, but they're simply intended to illustrate the point that nothing which is associated with one gender or the other is exclusive to that gender.
If we were to actually implement this by "tag what you see", then cisgender people with absolutely no gender ambiguity whatsoever would not at all be exempted from it. We would have to ascertain what gender we actually see in that image itself. And of course, canonically transgender characters who also have no ambiguity would be the same case. I'm fairly certain no one wants that, but correct me if I'm wrong.

All this is to say that "tag what you know" will continue to be a necessity when tagging either gender or biological sex under any reasonable implementation.

What I meant by this is just that to tag what you think the gender is, sorry if there was any confusion. If the uploader thinks the character looks like a certain gender, then the uploader should tag as such, based on what I said (of course with the exception of otoko_no_ko Though your point on manly looking women is a very good point. Reconsidering my statement, "tag-what-you-see" and "tag-what-you-know" logic should probably both be used together. You do raise some very good points.