Tag discussion: virtual_youtuber (and tag proposal)

With Virtual YouTuber in mind, with its growing popularity outside of Japan, there are two things I would like to bring up and see discussed.

1. As the tag is being used right now, "this tag should apply to not only virtual YouTubers themselves, but also to both parodies of virtual YouTubers and concept art that ultimately isn't used," (acknowledging my addition to the definition) which at this moment fails to consider one detail: figures affiliated to the virtual YouTuber or VTuber group in question.

Whether it be mascots (ex. Ebi Frion (Natsuiro Matsuri) and post #3566929), family members (ex. Hikasa Shikatarou and technically Anemachi), friends, staff (ex. Yuujin A (Hololive) or even just things linked to a VTuber (ex. post #3631769 was until a while ago under this tag); if they were by themselves, they technically shouldn't be tagged with the tag, yet they are.

Should the application of the tag be widened to encompass such figures as well, due to it being more convenient to just have them all under the same tag, or should a hard line be taken against having them included under the tag?

2. One thing I'm personally currently suspecting is that a deterrent to more uploading of VTuber art is the issue of their copyright tag - whilst this obviously isn't an issue for those VTubers in established groups/agencies, it is an issue when regarding indie VTubers.

Identifying the name of the VTuber can be easy enough, but then comes the question of how to format the copyright name - whether to make the VTuber's name the copyright and add a modifier to the character tag (ex. Virtual Gorilla and Virtual Gorilla (character), or alternatively use *_(virtual_youtuber) or *_(vtuber)); whether to do the reverse (ex. Tenjin Kotone and Tenjin Kotone (channel)); whether to try and replicate the channel name (ex. Leia and Leia - Virtual Singer -)); just say fuck it and use original; or just forget about it entirely if it is an image with a lot of VTubers or has at least one other VTuber-related copyright.

So I'd like to propose a copyright tag that functions akin to original, which can reduce the copyright clutter and encompass solo indie VTubers, dead or alive (something like "indie_virtual_youtuber", "independent_vtuber" "virtual_uploader", "original_virtual_youtuber", "original_(virtual_youtuber)" or so). It would additionally help in distinguishing indies from parodies of (e.g. post #3893917 and post #3770049)/references to (e.g. post #3425776 and post #3294236)/fake (e.g. Coco Kaine, Kyoumo Gyouza, Sera Makina, etc.)/fictitious (as in, VTubers exclusive to fiction)/concept art for unused (e.g. pool #13880 and pool #13881) VTubers, which, as previously mentioned, so far also count under the tag.

VTubers (mainly indie), who'd need a copyright to distinguish themselves, especially if they use a common name or have multiple folks under one channel, would obviously still get copyright tags (especially in cases akin to the Omega Sisters and love-pii channel, where there'd be (hash)tags that wouldn't be able to fit into just the chartag's Other Names). And with an all-encompassing copyright tag, an indie VTuber's tags on other platforms can be concentrated in the Other Names section of the chartag wiki.

As examples, 個人勢 (and to a far lesser extent, 完全個人勢) are (hash)tags on Pixiv and Twitter, for instance.

個人勢 - "It refers to a virtual YouTuber that works as an individual." [as in, not affiliated with a corporate group]

完全個人勢 - "Individuals who did their own character design are called complete individuals."

There's probably more (hash)tags aside from 個人勢 and 完全個人勢 that could fall under this new theoretical copytag too. So you got the combo of any of the VTuber (hash)tags [Vtuber/Vtuber準備中/新人Vtuber/Vtuberはじめました] and these (hash)tags for this theoretical new copytag, and you're pretty much set for things sans the chartag.

The only thing this copytag doesn't exactly account for is VTubers who are in self-made or community-suggested/assumed groups (ex. folks who are associated with BANs), or groups that don't exactly have them be under full corporate control (ex. folks supported through upd8 or VirtuaReal Link). In both cases, the VTubers there aren't hard-locked to them, so if they really wanted to be full independent, they can just do so. So it would have to be decided whether they get their own copyrights due to their association with said group, receive this theoretical new copytag, or just get tagged with the group regardless.

With more VTuber art to come, I think this copytag would be very useful, though I could imagine arguments against it, and rather fair ones at that! Hence why I'd want to discuss it.

tl;dr for the second point: should we create a original vtuber copy tag for minor wtubers instead of tagging them with just vtuber_name_ch?

I support this idea.

nonamethanks said:

tl;dr for the second point: should we create a original vtuber copy tag for minor wtubers instead of tagging them with just vtuber_name_ch?

I support this idea.

I support it if it's removed when/if a proper channel tag is made for them, acting like a placeholder of a sorts.

Unbreakable said:

I support it if it's removed when/if a proper channel tag is made for them, acting like a placeholder of a sorts.

Yeah i think the idea is to make it work like original - once a copyright tag is created it takes that tag's place.

Unbreakable said:

I support it if it's removed when/if a proper channel tag is made for them, acting like a placeholder of a sorts.

nonamethanks said:

Yeah i think the idea is to make it work like original - once a copyright tag is created it takes that tag's place.

I mean, that's not necessarily what I suggested. There are a lot of indie VTubers who do have their own copyright tag, in any of the formats I had mentioned above. They wouldn't end up receiving this theoretical copytag in that case.

But if folks would prefer a tag like that instead, then, well, that's fine too!

I'm not sure there's a point in having both such a tag and their own channel tag at the same time. Otherwise the tag would effectively just work as an "indie vtuber" tag, and that's pretty hard to define and would have to constantly be removed en masse whenever one tagged with it explodes in popularity.

nonamethanks said:

I'm not sure there's a point in having both such a tag and their own channel tag at the same time. Otherwise the tag would effectively just work as an "indie vtuber" tag, and that's pretty hard to define and would have to constantly be removed en masse whenever one tagged with it explodes in popularity.

Considering I said "which can reduce the copyright clutter and encompass solo indie VTubers", they wouldn't have both tags, but only the proposed copytag. In the same fashion that original characters don't necessarily have their own copyright tags, but instead use original, so too would be the case here. And someone doesn't stop being indie just because they became popular, especially if 個人勢 and 完全個人勢 are used as examples.

At least, that's how I am proposing this tag. As said, if a tag closer to original is preferred, one that gets removed once an actual copytag is made, then that's fine! It would still ultimately serve the purpose of easing the tagging of new VTuber art on the website, helping them be distinguished from parodies of/references to/fake/concept art for unused VTubers, and making it more accessible for the well-versed to come in and give them the proper copytag they deserve (for this version of the tag at least).

It just seems needless to me to have all these indie VTuber copyright tags that, for the most part, are nigh-indistinguishable from the character tag, and share the same Other Names (and this isn't even mentioning how the policy for regular YouTubers applies). However, at the same time, someone could argue at which point my proposed tag applies, i.e. were this tag proposed earlier, would Mirai Akari apply under it? Probably not, due to being under the corporate ZIZAI Inc, but the argument still stands for other examples.

Alternatively, we could go with what Rampardos suggested a year ago, of just dropping chartags for VTubers, and having them just have their own copytag, "since as it stands using both is almost always redundant, and not having a copyright would make crossovers (which they often do) confusing," especially as functionally copyright tags encompass both and we've seen a preference for copyright request over character request for indies and smaller groups (since figuring out the former will lead to the latter, eventually).

@memento_mori: i was just thinking about virtual youtuber but the last thread on it is a month old so don't want to bump
memento_mori: namely I think it should either go away (there's no "anime character" tag) or hololive+nijisanji should imply it
memento_mori: and maybe indie vtuber could be a copyright tag
nonamethanks: Yeah I think it's a useless tag too, I was against it when it was created
nonamethanks: Right now we get people mass adding it to anything with those copyrights
nonamethanks: Even when it's animalifications etc
Veradux: ...a vtuber tag was always questionably useful and is now unquestionably pointless.
@CyberWire: indie_vtuber or indepdendent_vtuber as [mori] mentioned sounds pretty reasonable, to solve this matter

Bumping the thread with this discussion from the Discord server, since it seemed that no one else was going to do so.

While I'm personally against getting rid of the tag, the arguments made in the threads back when the tag was created are somewhat compelling (though the comparison to shipgirls and virtual singers kind of falls flat when idol is a tag, which while more substantial in terms of what defines it, would theoretically be in the same boat as this tag, especially given the things now associated with VTubers; a resemblence even noted by mori). 2 years have passed since then, however, and not only has Danbooru changed in that time, but so has the exposure of VTubers. Also, have more relevant threads which related to the topic.

I support a copyright tag with a wiki listing all these vtubers, like "indie virtual youtuber". There's at least three cases I made character tag for indie vtuber posts but a copyright tag just for their channel would seem pretty useless, because all essential information of these vtubers (like simple description and external links for twitter/youtube channel) can just be put in their character wikis.

With everything discussed (barely, but still), I'd like to propose the following:

• the creation of a indie_virtual_youtuber copyright tag (with aliases to indie_vtuber and possibly virtual_youtuber_(indie)), which would be applied to all independent Virtual YouTubers/Livers/Uploaders (as in, not affiliated with a [major] corporate entity for their full support and management), with the following conditions in mind;
• if the indie VTuber(s) in question is:
• part of a broader VTuber group consisting of at least one (1) more VTuber, the copyright tag instead would be that of that given group, to account for the (hash)tags that the individual character tags couldn't include under their wiki's Other Names;
• sharing a channel with at least one (1) more VTuber, the copyright tag would be of the channel instead, for similar reasons as above
• under a corporate support group (i.e. upd8, VirtuaReal Link, etc.), they receive their own copyright tag, due to the nature of their affiliation with said corporate entity and the potential for them to just leave it if they wanted to (though this point can be discussed further, as to consider cases such as Andou Inari)
• under a communally-assumed group (i.e. BANs), they don't receive their own copyright tag, for reasons akin to those above
• VTubers under this tag can receive the _(vtuber) character modifier (being more prolific and shorter than _(virtual_youtuber), and more clear than _(character)), unless their name is common enough that there'd be multiple VTubers of that same name, in which case, they're free to have a character modifier based on their channel name (and if the channel name is just their name, then the modifier would be their surname + ch)
• the new tag can alternatively serve as a pseudo-original tag, allowing uploaders/taggers to utilize both character_request and copyright_request, if they are both uncertain of the character and its corporate affiliation
• corporate VTubers (i.e. Kaguya Luna, Makaji Yomi, Mirai Akari, etc.) will obviously still receive their own copyright tags, whether it be based on the subsidiary they are under, the company they belong to, or their channel name (if that's more memorable/easier to tag)
• the List of Virtual YouTubers wiki would divide its "Various / Independent (unorganized)" section into two, having one section for the corporate supported VTubers, and another for the independent VTubers (with the new tag created linked), absorbing the "Technically VTubers" section in the process
• the Virtual YouTuber tag would be updated to include the new copyright tag and emphasize its usage for indies, whilst the tag itself is for all things strictly VTubers, including parodies of them, references to them, fictitious VTubers, fake VTubers, and concept art for unused VTuber designs (the last two being paired with the original tag to emphasize the fact they aren't real)
• the tag would not apply to family members and friends of VTubers (unless a) they too are VTubers; b) the VTuber in question is in the post), or things that are merely linked to them; mascots and staff are fine, to an extent
• the tag, in its current form, resembles the idol tag, in that it is used for similar purposes; any further decisions that may or may not involve its deletion would require a wider discussion addressing points made here

Damian0358 said:

With everything discussed (barely, but still), I'd like to propose the following:

+1

Damian0358 said:

With everything discussed (barely, but still), I'd like to propose the following:

+1 so far at current from me.

Well, if no one seems to have any objections, I'll start tagging posts with indie_virtual_youtuber by the end of the week (since I'm busy with things IRL).

I agree with the point of view about small, indie v-tubers. Along with rise in popularity of EN V-tubers there's growth of (currently mostly not uploaded) arts for them, and besides few biggest ones, none feels like warranting entire tag only for themselves. While someone like Melody totaly needs her own, separate copyright tag (which also makes sense because her shits is copyrighted and technicaly she's her own agency, also between her, T0M and lol Melware there's already 3 characters in her show appearing rather frequently), ppl like... dunno... Shimohisae that lol i'm watching currently are very small and probably will get only few fanarts worth uploading.

Do Magrona (Magrona Channel) and Tomari Mari (Tomari Mari Channel) count as indie virtual youtubers? It seems like the case for me but wanted to confirm first. I believe they would need a mass update.

And another question, I think the wiki for the Indie Virtual Youtuber tag will definitely need a list of these vtubers. Is it okay to add a list to the wiki?

lamialover97 said:

Do Magrona (Magrona Channel) and Tomari Mari (Tomari Mari Channel) count as indie virtual youtubers? It seems like the case for me but wanted to confirm first. I believe they would need a mass update.

• under a corporate support group (i.e. upd8, VirtuaReal Link, etc.), they receive their own copyright tag, due to the nature of their affiliation with said corporate entity and the potential for them to just leave it if they wanted to

Both Magrona and Tomari Mari are under upd8, so whilst they may be indie, they receive their own copytags.

lamialover97 said:

And another question, I think the wiki for the Indie Virtual Youtuber tag will definitely need a list of these vtubers. Is it okay to add a list to the wiki?

There's going to be a section for them in the List of Virtual YouTubers, so this seems kind of unnecessary.

Hmm, I liked the idea because it would help people by not requiring uploaders to slow down and make a copyright tag every time, but now I'm having second thoughts after being surprised by big names like Shigure Ui and Kusunoki Shio being filed under this tag. Something about this doesn't feel right. I'm also now worried that this would put Sana Channel under this tag (as there's nothing about the rules preventing this) and that would be a disaster for the new tag. Shouldn't we consider not putting everything under this tag?

DreamFromTheLayer said:

Hmm, I liked the idea because it would help people by not requiring uploaders to slow down and make a copyright tag every time, but now I'm having second thoughts after being surprised by big names like Shigure Ui and Kusunoki Shio being filed under this tag. Something about this doesn't feel right. I'm also now worried that this would put Sana Channel under this tag (as there's nothing about the rules preventing this) and that would be a disaster for the new tag. Shouldn't we consider not putting everything under this tag?

With Sana Channel, there's also Saigou R Irori, aside from just Natori Sana, so it was safe. However, I do get your point.

But, there needs to be a logic behind why a certain creator goes under the tag or not. A post threshold is one way of solving that, but then you'd have to consider where the threshold is. Putting at, say, 100, allows Shigure to retain a copytag, but not Kusonoki, for instance.

Though the best threshold, in this case, would likely be a subscriber-based threshold, but that could come with its own complications.

imo the threshold should be having more than one chartags under the copyright tag. It's how we already handle original copyrights, so why not deal with vtubers in the same way?

Don't forget that all information of the youtuber channel copyright tags can be used in the indie vtubers character tags, making those copyright tags unnecessary.