[BUR] Holding tags

BUR #2867 has been approved by @evazion.

Includes all of the holding tags with a post count greater than 50 without an applicable implication.

All of the less straightforward items are at the top, to include grouping or regrouping of umbrella holding tags. The rest are ordered by postcount. The following is an explanation for some of them.

• 1. Alias holding_bow -> holding_bow_(weapon)
• Most examples seem to be of this. Not sure we need a tag for holding an actual bow.
• 2. Unimply holding_fruit -> holding
• Already implies holding_food
• 3. chocolate
• Seems like this should imply food and be under the holding_food umbrella.
• 4. spring_onion, pumpkin
• Seems like these should imply vegetable and be under the holding_vegetable umbrella.
• 5. Move many clothing items underneath the holding_clothes umbrella.
• 6. Imply lipstick_tube to makeup and have it under a new holding_makeup umbrella tag.
• 7. holding_heart - There were some examples of heart_(organ), but it was mostly heart. Not sure that one should be included, but if so, the implication to heart would need to be removed from the BUR.

Submitting this for feedback and review. Feel free to edit the BUR as needed.

EDIT: The bulk update request #2867 (forum #168078) has been approved by @evazion.

1. Alias holding_bow -> holding_bow_(weapon)

Bad idea.
post #3412196, post #842 etc. Precisely because there's few examples we need a tag for it so that it's not drowned by other results.

Most of these seem okay.

I think some of the holding_<item> should be aliased or mass updated away instead of implicated, especially when a holding_<category> already exists. In particular:

• alias holding_lance to holding_polearm
• mass update holding_shirt, holding_skirt etc. to holding_clothes along with respective shirt_removed, skirt_removed etc.
• alias holding_cat, holding_dog, etc. to holding_animal

Re: create implication holding_earphone -> earphones, I think holding_earphone should be changed to holding_earphones. The plural agrees with the usage of headphones and earbuds.

create implication holding_mushroom -> holding_food

Going to disagree with trying to suggest that mushroom = food. If anything, most of the mushrooms depicted would more than likely be poisonous. -1 to this specific implication.

Another point: I think holding panties, bra and shoes should be separated from holding_clothes. For bra and panties, it's for obvious reasons much different than holding any other piece of clothing. If they have to be merged they should go under holding underwear rather than a generic clothing tag.
For shoes, it's often for characters walking barefoot or in socks, with all the other clothing pieces still on. Compare what's under holding shoes vs holding clothes - completely different scenarios visually. holding_clothes shoes is not a substitute.

nonamethanks said:

1. Alias holding_bow -> holding_bow_(weapon)

Bad idea.
post #3412196, post #842 etc. Precisely because there's few examples we need a tag for it so that it's not drowned by other results.

Fixed. Instead, I added an implication from holding_bow to holding and bow.

Arcana55 said:

Most of these seem okay.

I think some of the holding_<item> should be aliased or mass updated away instead of implicated, especially when a holding_<category> already exists. In particular:

• alias holding_lance to holding_polearm
• mass update holding_shirt, holding_skirt etc. to holding_clothes along with respective shirt_removed, skirt_removed etc.
• alias holding_cat, holding_dog, etc. to holding_animal

I think most of those would need to be debated in another topic, so I left most of those as is. I did however change holding_lance to imply holding_polearm instead of straight to holding.

Arcana55 said:

Re: create implication holding_earphone -> earphones, I think holding_earphone should be changed to holding_earphones. The plural agrees with the usage of headphones and earbuds.

Done. I also created an alias from holding_earphone to holding_earphones.

NWF_Renim said:

Going to disagree with trying to suggest that mushroom = food. If anything, most of the mushrooms depicted would more than likely be poisonous. -1 to this specific implication.

Fixed. It now implies holding instead.

nonamethanks said:

Another point: I think holding panties, bra and shoes should be separated from holding_clothes. For bra and panties, it's for obvious reasons much different than holding any other piece of clothing. If they have to be merged they should go under holding underwear rather than a generic clothing tag.
For shoes, it's often for characters walking barefoot or in socks, with all the other clothing pieces still on. Compare what's under holding shoes vs holding clothes - completely different scenarios visually. holding_clothes shoes is not a substitute.

Done. I changed the holding_bra and holding_panties tags to point to holding_underwear, and then added a holding_underwear to holding_clothes implication. I also removed the holding_shoes lines, and since it already implies both shoes and holding, nothing more needs to be done with that one.

Changes

I created a screenshot of all changes made to the BUR.

• (2020-07-19) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WJaN8Y_vmjPcsoEcI94OGdroGrwHa8Mw/view

In the future, please create wikis for every tag in an request. All tags in an implication request must have wikis, even trivial tags.

I have to say, I don't like the proliferation of holding tags. Virtually every holdable object is going to have a holding tag at this rate. It's another example of tag creep, just like with color tags. It leads to a combinatorial explosion of tags that are often very niche, redundant, or not very significant by themselves.

It also leads to replicating deep implication hierarchies under the holding tags. Things like the weapon hierarchy, the food hierarchy, the musical instrument hierarchy, or clothing hierarchies end up repeated as part of the holding hierarchy. This creates a lot of complicated hierarchies and it also leads to tag explosions, where you add one tag and it explodes into 4 or 5 other tags.

It also creates fragmentation of similar actions. We get things like holding smartphone, holding cellphone, and holding phone being three separate tags, because the base tags are separate, even though the action itself is the same. We've fixed that particular example, but still, we get things like holding cigarette vs holding cigar, holding letter vs holding envelope, or holding wrench vs holding screwdriver, which may technically be different objects, but the actions themselves are very similar.

Some of these tags are also redundant for objects that are frequently held. Consider tags like holding pom poms or holding pointer. If you look at pom poms or pointer, you can see these things are almost always held, they're never just lying around. If holding pom poms were fully populated, it would be virtually the same thing as pom poms. It's like creating wearing panties, as if panties isn't enough (and then adding wearing underwear, wearing clothes, and wearing on top of that, because why not).

I've removed the following implications for reasons discussed below:

• chocolate -> food
• spring onion -> vegetable
• lipstick tube -> makeup
• holding makeup -> holding
• holding brush -> brush
• holding whip -> whip
• holding photo -> photo
• holding stuffed toy -> stuffed toy
• holding another's tail -> tail
• holding pole -> holding
• holding reins -> holding

As for specific implications:

• Please put non-holding implications like chocolate -> food, spring onion -> vegetable, lipstick tube -> makeup in separate topics. Some of these are wrong or debatable (nothing else implies vegetable, and a lipstick tube is cosmetics not makeup).

• Holding makeup should be holding cosmetics. Makeup is for worn makeup like lipstick or mascara, while cosmetics is for unworn makeup products like lipstick tubes or mascara wands.

• Holding lance and holding spear should be aliased to holding polearm, or even holding weapon. Replicating the entire weapon hierarchy is too much. Note that we don't go any deeper than holding gun for guns.

• No to holding pole. Holding is for objects you can pick up and carry with you. This should be something like pole grab instead.

• Holding reins is questionable to me. Reins aren't something you can pick up and carry around. It's also fairly redundant, reins are normally only tagged if they're being held.

• Holding clothes should probably imply clothes removed. If the clothing isn't completely removed (someone is holding or adjusting their own worn clothing, for example), then it shouldn't be tagged holding. Most of the the holding clothes subtags need to be cleaned up.

• Holding bikini, holding bikini top, and holding bikini bottom should logically imply holding swimsuit, which should logically imply holding clothes. I'd prefer just aliasing them all into holding swimsuit though.

• Holding bow is ambiguous and needs cleanup. See bow vs bow (weapon) vs bow (instrument).

• Holding brush is ambiguous, it includes things like hair brushes, paintbrushes, and calligraphy brushes, none of which currently imply brush.

• Holding whip says it can be used for riding crops, which doesn't imply whip.

• Holding stuffed animal should be aliased to holding stuffed toy. Stuffed toy is a superset of stuffed animal (frankly stuffed animal should be aliased to stuffed toy, they're virtually the same tag).

• Holding whistle needs some cleanup, it shouldn't be used for handsfree mouth holds.

• Holding notebook and holding notepad are very similar.

• Holding game controller is pretty redundant with playing games.

• Holding cape should imply holding clothes.

• Holding photo should imply photo (object), not photo.

• Holding another's tail already implies tail.

• Should holding goggles be considered a subset of holding eyewear or holding clothes?

The bulk update request #2867 (forum #168078) has been approved by @evazion.

BUR #3109 has been approved by @evazion.

remove implication holding_reins -> holding
remove implication holding_pole -> holding
create implication holding_reins -> reins
create implication holding_pole -> pole

I mixed up these implications.

EDIT: The bulk update request #3109 (forum #170127) has been approved by @evazion.

The bulk update request #3109 (forum #170127) has been approved by @evazion.

I agree very much that holding_* tags are going out of control, users keep making them for pretty much every single item (I've been removing a lot of them) and a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Unbreakable said:

I agree very much that holding_* tags are going out of control, users keep making them for pretty much every single item (I've been removing a lot of them) and a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

Perhaps we should start up a thread for this and determine a list of acceptable holding_* tags initially, and then any other future additions beyond that have to requested and debated there.