[SPOILER] [Zombieland Saga Ep8] Regarding Hoshikawa Lily

feline_lump said:

As for the spoiler question - every time this happens, it seems to turn into an "everybody knows" deal at some point or another, so I don't know that we're going to have to keep a spoiler moratorium on the tags forever. In fact, even on non-spoiler images, the comments are already so full of discussion about this spoiler that it's difficult to hide that there's something going on. Might very well depend on how long-lasting the fandom is, though.

True, but Zombie Land Saga has been hit with people discussing things in the comments within the first day of the episode going up (including the spoilers of episodes 6 and 7, as well), so there really does need to be some enforcement through at least neutral feedbacks if un-spoiled discussion on non-spoiler-tagged images keeps up, because otherwise people who don't want spoilers on something they intend to watch soon after release but not the instant it comes out will have to actively avoid Danbooru. (I've already just given up on the idea that I'll get to see this show before having it accidentally spoiled while looking at the mod queue or comments.)

Likewise, it can change a lot depending on how much the story expands from there. Shrek, for example, had Fiona becoming an ogre be a reveal and would qualify as a spoiler, but then with all the sequels, she's right up there on the movie posters as an ogre. By that same token, it's kind of hard to keep Haruhi's nature a secret spoiler (the way that TVTropes did) when there's a long-running franchise and tons of fan discussion and it's kind of the central hook of the plot so you can't avoid it.

Meanwhile, I think Lily's transgender nature is probably more ancillary to the plot to the point that it's going to be talked about only when an artist wants to talk about it.

Hey, nice to see I'm being referred to in the OP.

To elaborate further, what I meant was 'refer to source material' taking precedence over "Tag what you see" was in regards to the fact that Lily until the most recent episode was understood by the audience to be a girl, both from what the show presented and what the official site said, and so audiences drew fanart of her as a girl. You don't go and retroactively retag her images as 1boy or the like.

With the current revelation, it would be spoilers to tag it as '1boy' without showing it. More importantly, lets say that the artist drew Lily in a normal outfit with nothing to hint about her being trans and thus having a dick, and somebody did not see the series and uploaded it to danbooru, tagging only what they saw and the name. So say they look up more information about them and see that Lily is a girl on the official site, or the wiki.

So you tag them as a girl. Even knowing the events of the latest episode, you would be wrong to change it.

Transphobic or not, danbooru is primarily an image database. You tag things that are visible so people can find images with easy to search tags. Ideally, this gets people interested in an artist, series, or character and then they go out and search for more, to add to danbooru. Properly curating tags is important for database purposes.

GabrielWB said:

Hoshikawa Lily is considered a girl by everyone. Tag as 1girl unless the post explicitly portrays Lily as a boy

+1 to this.

Additionally, otoko_no_ko should still be tagged as well if the character is canonically a transgender, regardless of whether the pic in question is the 1girl or 1boy version of the character.

The ideal result should be:

1girl search return pics of girl-looking characters
1girl otoko_no_ko search return pics of girl-looking characters that are actually transgender.
1boy otoko_no_ko search return pics of girl-looking characters with obvious bulge / male genitalia / bare chest (?).

As an image board, I can't imagine people searching for 5girls but absolutely reject 4girls 1boy otoko_no_ko. It makes more sense for 5girls to return exactly what it says with otoko_no_ko acting as the filter.

---

But of course, there needs to be a clear guideline as to the distinction between the 1girl and 1boy versions.

e.g. Would post #2988531 counts as 1boy since it explicitly plays up the male side of astolfo? Should context be taken into account when it's comic?

Vezral said:

e.g. Would post #2988531 counts as 1boy since it explicitly plays up the male side of astolfo? Should context be taken into account when it's comic?

Even by the "trans sensitive" standards KeliraTelian is pushing, Astolfo is male because Astolfo (as a typical Otoko no Ko) identifies as (straight) male even while expressing (looking) female. Again, however, you get into a massively subjective game (which not everyone will be able to play without being able to read the Japanese in the first place when it isn't yet translated) of trying to guess how a character is identifying from looks alone and contrast that to whatever the artist states the intent is, if the artist states that at all... which is a massive subjective minefield and why it can't form a working consensus.

And that's before you deal with characters like Hato from Genshiken who is gender fluid and has a separate female persona that Hato slips in and out of and constantly changing understanding of their own sexuality as the plot progresses, meaning that, if we go by the standard of what the character identifies as, whether you tag "boy" or "girl", you have to go by where in the plot this is supposed to be taking place, which is sheer guesswork. (Or for that matter, a medically magically genderswapped character whose identity comes under question and openly wonders whether still liking girls makes "her" a lesbian.) Playing with gender as a non-binary is kind of a whole subgenre of anime, and hence refusing to recognize that and trying to force binary gender on all of them is just as bad as the "transphobic" not recognizing a character's identity.

People already tag Astolfo as Otoko no Ko and male by default unless there's something that says this version of Astolfo is completely female, but the same goes for Hato or Jun, even when they're identifying as female. (Although I never watched Happiness!, so I have no idea about Jun, which again, is a problem in asking of crowdsourced adjudication of these sorts of things.)

The easiest default we can reach is that a series that treats a character as female should be tagged xgirl unless there's something in the context of the image to say otherwise, while the characters that are treated as male (like Astolfo) are male. That at least means we'll default Lily to xgirl, but there are still going to be artists that draw a Lily identifying as or depicted as male, which are going to take the xboy tags.

Ah yes, let's complain about transphobia in a site that contains guro, lolicon rape, shitton of rape in general, mutilation, and tons of other very nice content.

The actual issue is that people don't want to see a penis when they search for porn of girls, and again, I don't care if that bothers them.

Too bad tags have to be grounded in reality and not in whatever you like then, eh?

Is everyone going crazy? "Otoko no ko" == "trap" for the purpose of tagging. Why in the world would you put Astolfo, Link or a similar character in the search results of people specifically searching for female characters? Do you want danbooru to be the laughing stock of imageboards?

Seriously, this whole discussion is just boggling. Does the fact that Astolfo's bulge is hidden behind a skirt make him male? Do I become a woman if I put lipstick on? Use your brain people, nobody searching for "1girl solo" wants to see a dick in there. Tags exist to be useful, if you start modifying them every time someonne pretends to be offended we might as well just shut down the site.

This whole discussion is meme tier.

Yeah, thats an image of Lily naked, with a dick. That doesn't make her suddenly not a girl.

At this point I'm wondering how everyone ITT actually managed to fall for a troll this obvious.

>Too bad tags have to be grounded in reality and not in whatever you like then, eh?

So wait, why does 'reality' favor your side, precisely? The reality is that Lily is a transgirl.

Oh yeah, and stop using trap

KeliraTelian said:

So wait, why does 'reality' favor your side, precisely? The reality is that Lily is a transgirl.

And the reality is that we cannot tell the opinion of a character from a picture - but we can tell whether he's got a dick or not.

Does he have a dick? Does he have boobs? If the answer is "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, we tag him male. If he also crossdresses frequently and pretends to be a girl, it's a trap and we tag him otoko no ko. Because danbooru is an image board, not a concept board. We might as well start tagging political positions of characters too.

Oh yeah, and stop using trap

No

nonamethanks said:

And the reality is that we cannot tell the opinion of a character from a picture - but we can tell whether he's got a dick or not.

Does he have a dick? Does he have boobs? If the answer is "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, we tag it male. Because danbooru is an image board, not a concept board. We might as well start tagging political positions of characters too.

No

Its cool that you've just come right out and admitted to being a transphobe, really cuts to the chase.

Lily is a transgirl and being able to see her dick doesn't make her not a girl.

Sorry if girldick is a traumatizing experience for you

Bruv I'm not sure how everyone else actually fell for your trap but at this point you're pretty much posting word for word some of those "feminine penis" copypastas.

Srsly, I'm extremely disappointed in everyone in this thread.

Oh no you used the word trap in its proper context, truly I am defeated!

Tag Lily as 1girl unless she's shown having a dick, that's my stance on it. She's not a trap or anything so no reason to tag her as 1boy unless it's proven to be one in the drawing.

With respect to spoilers, continue tagging Lily as 1girl unless other visual context suggests otherwise.

However, this decision only applies to this case. Anyone trying to use it as "precedent" to change other existing tags will be reprimanded.

Locking the thread before it spirals into a dumpster fire.