The Great Fate Character Retagging Project

mj1234 said:

I never said there shouldn't be a supertag or umbrella tag. Those who prefer to look up the same alternatives with one tag can do so, but there are people who also would like to look up a specific character separated from different variants.

What I meant by "without implications" is that there should be one umbrella tag for those three characters with three separate tags. So searching for Tohsaka_Rin wouldn't give you Ishtar or Ereshkigal, but if you searched for Tohsaka_Rin_(all), all three would be included.

Ah, I misunderstood your post. I'd personally be for a separate umbrella tag rather than having them implicated to a single character, but I think you should open a new thread dedicated to it so this one won't be derailed further. There shouldn't be any problem in doing so because there's no spoilers/true names involved in this.

nonamethanks said:

You really need to take a chill pill and stop assuming that everyone that disagrees with you has ulterior motives or is being dishonest/dumb. If you keep arguing like that most other users will simply ignore your posts and discard your arguments.

But he's right. All this has been discussed over and over. There's been polls, there's been arguments, but every time there's a hint things might progress they go back to "there's no consensus" and "it's divisive" and "it hasn't been solved" but then do nothing to actually move the discussion forward. This whole thing has been going for like half a year. It shouldn't need half a year. The same arguments get presented, the same counterarguments happen, it's all so goddamn circular and if that's not proof they are deliberately not reading and/or deliberately ignoring previous posts then nothing is.

I'd say we should focus on whether the introduction of Fate/Grand Order makes identities from previous entries non-spoilers or not first. That seems to be what's stopping many from supporting the proposed changes to class names.

How about with start (yet again) with something smaller in scope: Fate/Ex subseries. Extra, Extra CCC, Extella.

The points here are three:
1) Extra didn't really try very hard to hide the true names.
2) FGO, as with other subproperties, just goes ahead and reveals everyone's true names.
and finally, and most importantly:
3) Extella, the latest installment in the subfranchise, localized to the west and with wide audience reach (with releases in all major platforms including PC via Steam), makes zero effort to hide true names, actively promoting its characters under the true name.

Thus, in my opinion, trying to keep the identities of Fate/Ex servants as spoilers is pointless.

Points against the above (that I can think of):
a) FWIW, the promotional materials for the upcoming anime (coming next season) are doing a token effort at using class names instead of true names, although IMO that's simply to keep with the original materials for Extra. (and in doing so might've revealed a foreshadowing/possible spoiler wrt the story itself)
b) Most pre-FGO/Extella promotional materials did stick to class names, although didn't try particularly hard at hiding identities past that.

Fate/Extra is actually a good example to show the limits of class based naming. We already use true names for both gawain_(fate/extra) and nursery_rhyme_(fate/extra) because of how otherwise confusing it would be to handle two Servants of the same class from the same series.

WakuWaku said:

Fate/Extra is actually a good example to show the limits of class based naming. We already use true names for both gawain_(fate/extra) and nursery_rhyme_(fate/extra) because of how otherwise confusing it would be to handle two Servants of the same class from the same series.

I think this is why the "true name spoiler" argument is invalid when some tags like above and/or gilgamesh being treated as "special cases". The problem now lies whether the viewers are getting angry for being spoiled solely from knowing true name of a character, from a franchise that is over 10 years old now.

And that reminds me, in the poll we had 378 people voting for "Use class names for all Fate properties" which is practically impossible (and personally that alone makes me think that 378 vote is invalid since there's no way to do that). For example, in Apoc we have two of sabers etc but that can be solved with adding _of_red and _of_black after the class names. However, when there's no other qualifying tags to follow the class name, how are we going to tag everyone (including all F/GO servants since F/GO is a part of Fate properties) solely with class name? Are we going to have fat_saber_(fate/grand order) instead of julius_caesar_(fate/grand_order) or tanned_saber_(fate/grand order) for altera (fate)?

FGO doesn't hide what would be spoilers for previous entries. Why does this matter? I was still reading Fate/stay night with friends when FGO came out and would have been pretty pissed off if I got spoiled on Archer's identity because the taggers here couldn't fathom how anyone in the world wouldn't be playing FGO. Yes, FGO is massive, but FSN is still one of the most popular VNs out there. New people will always be reading it and going in without any prior spoilers. The new adaptions are getting a lot of first timers that are told to start with FSN when asked. If not FZ, one of the most popular anime adaptions out there. How would they already know all the identities at that point? Many start with FGO, but many don't. The idea that it's impossible to enter any Fate without already being spoiled is too narrow-minded for me to agree with.

As for Fate/Extra, isn't the watch order Extra (or Extella/Zero, which is extremely similar) followed by Extella? If so hiding identities there would be like hiding Medea's true name in Heaven's Feel when it was already given in Unlimited Blade Works no? I haven't read Extra so this is more of a question than a challenge to your point. If the entry point hides spoilers then we should too.

The big question you should be asking is "is it worth protecting spoilers to have so many convoluted tags?" I and many others do not think so. At a certain point we have to have some give for the sake of the website, and with Grand Order blowing the whole concept of True Names as spoilers right out of the water, there's little reason to continue with the rat's nest of tags we have now.

I think the problem here is that the "hide True Names" camp is coming from the same dogma, as well as the notion that "spoilers ruin a story". In fact, studies show that spoilers don't ruin anything, and actually make poeple enjoy the story more.
https://www.wired.com/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/spoiler-alert-spoilers-make-you-enjoy-stories-more
https://gizmodo.com/stop-worrying-about-spoilers-they-actually-help-you-en-1778452171
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH86XMZ8vn8

Spoiler alert: If you're driving up Highway 1 through Big Sur, you can see otters frolicking in the surf.

This seems consistent with the survey results where 55.76% of respondents said they don't care about spoilers in tags.

goldenrider006 said:

You're letting your obvious disdain towards FGO cloud your judgement. The game is absurdly popular, and you're denying reality.

I don't think MyrMindservant is showing a disdain for FGO, but is rather following a dogma of "A spoiler is a spoiler no matter what", which is false for long-running franchises. For some examples, let's see what we would have to tag as a spoiler if we actually followed "a spoiler is a spoiler forever and ever and ever no matter what even if a creator says it's no longer a spoiler":

• Any picture with Alicia Testarossa, because her existence is a spoiler for Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha.
• Any picture where Takamachi Nanoha and Fate Testarossa are friends, because Fate switching sides is a spoiler for the 1st season, regardless of following seasons being pretty open about it.
• Any picture with Reinforce, because she only appears at the end of Nanoha A's, and maybe also Reinforce Zwei because her debut is in the epilogue.
• We can't tag Nanoha and Vivio as mother and daughter, because Nanoha adopting Vivio is a spoiler for Strikers, regardless of how Vivid starts.
• We can't tag Subaru, Ginga, or Genya Nakajima with any family tag when together with Cinque, Dieci, Nove, and Wendi because Genya adopting one third of the Numbers is a spoiler for Strikers, regardless of how upfront Vivid and other sequels are about it.

• Any picture where Yukine Chris is friends with Hibiki or Kazanari Tsubasa, because Chris joining them is a spoiler for Senki Zesshou Symphogear.
• Any picture with an X-Drive because its existence is a spoiler for season 1 of Symphogear, to the point X-Drive first appeared without any foreshadowing of such a form being possible.
• Any image of Maria Cadenzavna Eve with Airget-lamh, because her using that gear is a spoiler for Symphogear G, regardless of what GX has to say about it.
• Any image of the Maria, Akatsuki Kirika, and Tsukuyomi Shirabe being friends with Hibiki, Tsubasa, and Chris, because they joining the Division 2's side is a spoiler for Symphogear G, regardless of what GX's opening depicts.
• Any image of Kohinata Miku wearing the Shénshòujìng, because it's a spoiler for G. XD Unlimited openly advertising it in the opening, official posters, and even the official website, is irrelevant because once a spoiler always a spoiler. Speaking of which, most of Miku's Shénshòujìng pictures are tagged as spoilers, but the most recent ones aren't, and I assume it's because of XD.
• Heck, if we are super ultra serious about it, we might as well tag every Symphogear picture as spoiler given how much effort the pre-release promotion for season 1 put into making people believe the protagonists would be Kanade and Tsubasa only for Kanade to die in ep1 and Hibiki suddenly being the protagonist.

• Any picture of Lillie's new clothes in Pokémon Sun and Moon, which are openly advertised in USUM's promo (post #2864698). Speaking of which, I don't have a 3DS and have yet to watch a walkthrough of SM, so sorry if I'm missing something, but, why the heck do we those new clothes as spoiler? It's just a costume.

• Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Akizuki Ryou's gender a spoiler? I'm not familiar enough with Dearly Stars to know, but I remember headlines about it in an anime site about how pre-release fanart depicting him with a female body was now wrong.

• Any picture of Yagami Hikari with the Chosen Children from Digimon Adventure, because her being the 8th Chosen Child is a spoiler, even if the second ending didn't make any effort to hide it despite coming before her joining the team.
• Also, how dare we reveal that Kimura Kouichi exists and Minamoto Kouji is not an only child like he believed he was.
• While we are at it, any Sixth Ranger from a Toei franchise (Super Sentai, Precure, etc.), or maybe from any yearly reboot franchise in general, should be tagged as spoilers. How dare we reveal that there's a Go-On Gold and Go-On Silver who join the Go-Ongers (and take away the unprecedented surprise of TWO sixth rangers in the same series!), that a Shinken Gold exists, or that Eas/Higashi Setsuna becomes Cure Passion?
• Speaking of which, isn't Aesha Krishnam a spoiler? I have only watched the Sky Girls pilot OVA and not the series, so all I know about Aesha is that she's not in the opening (unlike Elise von Dietrich, who also doesn't appear in the OVA) and has the least images out of all five girls. Considering that, and the fact there's many images with the other four girls but no Aesha, I'm assuming she joins the cast later, and I don't see a spoiler tag on any of her images.

• And also, maybe any Zettai Karen Children picture where The Children are not 10-year-olds except for when they are 20 (example post #326606) in the prophecy about the future war, because it spoils that the series also covers them growing up into middle school and, currently, high school. Example: post #593966, post #972825, post #972826, I don't know the exact ages in the images because I'm still in age 10 arc, but you get my point.

• And Son Gokuu from Dragon Ball also grows up like The Children, and he even has a kid at some point. We shouldn't spoil that, right? I mean, it's still a spoiler, even if most people remember adult Gokuu more.

• And maybe Nina Wang wearing the Ultimate Black Diamond should be a spoiler since it doesn't happen until after mid-season, when the plot shifts from "look, I'm in a prestigious school" to "oh no, Garderobe was invaded, Nagi wants to take over, and I can't believe Erstin is F-ing dead".
• Also, all these Otome robes, of which most don't appear until the final battle, if I'm remembering correctly. And honestly, I may be exaggerating the number because of just how many characters My-Otome has. Shiho is the only one I'm 100% sure doesn't use the Spiral Spin Serpentine until the final battle.

I'm having trouble thinking of any other example right now, but I think you get my point. As a franchise continues, things stop being a spoiler. We don't tag Matoi Ryuuko and Kiryuuin Satsuki as sisters because Kill la Kill doesn't have a sequel dictating "that is not a spoiler anymore", while Nanoha and Vivio being mother and daughter is pretty public as of Vivid and Force, and it's literally impossible to pick Vivid without being spoiled that. Actually, I think it's impossible to enter the Lyrical Nanoha franchise without knowing that StrikerS takes a 10 years time skip.

Symphogear AXZ's non-X-Drive final battle forms are currently spoilers, but will stop being so when they inevitably become playable in XDU and anyone will be able to gacha roll them without having watched the series. Yagami Hikari is part of the main characters from the get-go in Digimon Adventure 02 and Digimon Adventure tri.. I think Tougou Mimori and Sumi Washio being the same person is very public in Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru: Hanayui no Kirameki but I'll have to watch more of the walkthroughs to be sure. The game definitely spoils that Tougou recovers her ability to walk and that Minowa Gin dies. In fact, from what I've read, there's a whole drama about Tougou and Sonogi not wanting to tell their younger selves and Gin that Gin is dead.

The longer a series or franchise runs, the bigger the chance of spoilers expiring. So, yes, spoilers DO expire, for long-running franchises. Fate/Grand Order is just the point where those previous spoilers are no longer spoilers. What it does is no different than Nanoha Vivid telling us off the bat that Nanoha adopted Vivio, or Digimon Adventure 02 and tri. telling us right off the bat Hikari is a Chosen Child with Tailmon as her Partner.

EDIT: Corrected typos and added Akizuki Ryou from Idolmaster to examples.

WakuWaku said:

Fate/Extra is actually a good example to show the limits of class based naming. We already use true names for both gawain_(fate/extra) and nursery_rhyme_(fate/extra) because of how otherwise confusing it would be to handle two Servants of the same class from the same series.

I just want to say that the Fate/EXTRA material uses "Saber (White)", "Archer (Green)", Caster (Fox), etc. in some cases, but doesn't seem to be very consistent about it.

willsolvit said:

The new adaptions are getting a lot of first timers that are told to start with FSN when asked.

When? I don't remember the official FGO site telling people to watch FSN before playing the game. Likewise, when I watched Prisma Illya and the UBW movie, there was no notice telling me to watch FSN first.

willsolvit said:

If the entry point hides spoilers then we should too.

I'll have to look up again when I have time to, but I think I remember Nasu saying in a pre-release interview that FGO is the intended entry point for the franchise, and was made so the franchise could reach a wider audience. That seems as "I expect you to play this before watching anything else" as it can get.
Didn't someone in this thread mention that Fate/Apocrypha only got an anime adaptation because its Servants were popular in FGO? Or was it on Reddit? I only remember I saw someone quoting an interview about that.

G-SANtos said:

In fact, studies show that spoilers don't ruin anything, and actually make poeple enjoy the story more.

What about stories that center all around the identity of a character? Because I can guarantee you that anyone in the middle of F/SN who is even barely involved by the story will be fucking pissed if you straight out tell them "Oh yeah by the way Archer is future shirou".

People here are complaining about the "same old arguments", but it seems the other side doesn't get it either.
UBW is ALL about Archer's reveal and the leading up of Shirou's powers's awakening to a form that can challenge/mirror Gilgamesh.

Just like willsolvit said it, F/GO's existence does not invalidate previous installments.
And you're comparing apples with oranges. Fate is not a franchise comprised of a single type of media. If someone is interested in a visual novel or an anime series it says nothing about their interest in games or lack thereof.

And I can assure you we'd still tag something as relevant as archer's identity as a spoiler. This is precisely the same reason why akemi homura does not imply akuma homura (go ahead, try to submit an implication for that and see the shitstorm unfold), or why naruto's kyuubi does not imply kurama (topic #12963).
Fate/Grand Order shouldn't have special rules just because of its popularity.

By the way, this is not even about a bunch of pictures having spoilers and not being marked as such, this is straight out naming a character after a spoiler so that it's absolutely impossible for anyone searching for it to avoid it.

And as a final addendum, here's a couple random articles that say the opposite of yours:
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/03/scientific-explanations-for-why-spoilers-are-so-horrible/274227/
https://www.livescience.com/53126-spoilers-can-ruin-movie-enjoyment.html

G-SANtos said:
When? I don't remember the official FGO site telling people to watch FSN before playing the game. Likewise, when I watched Prisma Illya and the UBW movie, there was no notice telling me to watch FSN first.

By the internet when searching for watch orders. You've you put FGO on a pedestal here but those of us not into mobile games googling how to get into Fate are usually told to get into that last. A quick google search shows MyAnimeList, Crunchyroll, Youtube, Reddit, and some smaller communities all either saying to start with Fate/stay night or Fate/Zero. These have massive anime communities that are constantly growing and are subsequently getting new people to consume anime. They're anime fans, so many either put off any material that isn't animated or flat out ignore it. They also get their fanart from this website because this might as well be the best fanart site out there that filters out low quality images. See where I'm getting here? Again, FGO is not as universal as you're assuming. It might be to someone who likes visual novels and/or mobile games, but that's only a percentage of an community that comes here for their fanart. You can't assume everyone here is a fan of that type of media and doesn't mind having many of the biggest reveals spoiled for them.

G-SANtos said:
I'll have to look up again when I have time to, but I think I remember Nasu saying in a pre-release interview that FGO is the intended entry point for the franchise, and was made so the franchise could reach a wider audience. That seems as "I expect you to play this before watching anything else" as it can get.
Didn't someone in this thread mention that Fate/Apocrypha only got an anime adaptation because its Servants were popular in FGO? Or was it on Reddit? I only remember I saw someone quoting an interview about that.

Doesn't matter what Nasu said if nobody follows it. The only people I've seen recommend Fate/Grand Order first included a "but only if you don't care about the rest of the franchise" right after. I don't see how the factors leading up to Apocrypha being greenlit are relevant here. I completely agree that FGO is important if that's what you were getting at.

WatcherCCG said:

The big question you should be asking is "is it worth protecting spoilers to have so many convoluted tags?" I and many others do not think so. At a certain point we have to have some give for the sake of the website, and with Grand Order blowing the whole concept of True Names as spoilers right out of the water, there's little reason to continue with the rat's nest of tags we have now.

Thank you for saying something different. Working towards a compromise is more productive than repeating the same old argument. The tags are convoluted because we a) have tried our best up until this point to protect spoilers and b) we make a new tag for each different outfit. The focus right now is A, so let's decide whether or not to use true names for Fate/Apocrypha and Fate/Extra. Baby steps. Ignore the main three entries for now.

willsolvit said:

The focus right now is A, so let's decide whether or not to use true names for Fate/Apocrypha and Fate/Extra. Baby steps. Ignore the main three entries for now.

I see no problem in doing so. More so for F/Extra since those characters are widely and overwhelmingly known by their real names rather than class.
For Fate/Apocrypha the only three or four characters for which identity matters have their name revealed in the first episode or as soon as they're introduced - the first five minutes for Mordred if you don't count the 2 minutes long prologue to the first episode, and almost instantly for Siegfried and Achilles. The only one not explicitly named immediately is Vlad but then again you'd have to be sleeping through the show to not realize who he is as soon as they say they are in Transylvania. And in the same way as Extra they are more known by their name than their class.

tl;dr yeah sure, true names for F/A and F/E.

saber_alter shouldn't imply santa_alter because santa_alter is part of the rider class.

same goes for the other santa variations for other characters.

mj1234 said:

saber_alter shouldn't imply santa_alter because santa_alter is part of the rider class.

same goes for the other santa variations for other characters.

The implications should be made so that people can search for a single visually distinct character with a single tag. The in-game class doesn't matter because santa_alter and saber_alter in santa_alter's costume are visually indistinguishable.

nonamethanks said:

The implications should be made so that people can search for a single visually distinct character with a single tag. The in-game class doesn't matter because santa_alter and saber_alter in santa_alter's costume are visually indistinguishable.

that's why there's an umbrella tag artoria_pendragon_(all) for those who prefer to use a single tag to find different characters resembling each other.

santa_alter is part of the rider class while saber_alter is part of the saber class, therefore santa_alter should not imply saber_alter and vice versa

also can someone clarify if mysterious_heroine_x_(alter) and mysterious_heroine_x should imply each other before i separate them

mj1234 said:
santa_alter is part of the rider class while saber_alter is part of the saber class

And this is irrelevant to the tagging process.

Now, we don't seperate anything now, will we?

The tagging seems like clutter now.
I want a clear answer to what CodeKyuubi pointed out in another topic:

So, I've noticed we've been getting duplication of Fate chartags, as seen in post #2940458 and post #2927390 where we have two each of the general character tags. Is that intentional?

We have nero_claudius_(fate), nero_claudius_(fate)_(all) and nero claudius (swimsuit caster) (fate).

1. Should Nero_Claudius_(fate) be tagged there? Seems rather superfluous with the *_(all) tags.

Chiera said:

Now, we don't seperate anything now, will we?

The tagging seems like clutter now.
I want a clear answer to what CodeKyuubi pointed out in another topic:

We have nero_claudius_(fate), nero_claudius_(fate)_(all) and nero claudius (swimsuit caster) (fate).

1. Should Nero_Claudius_(fate) be tagged there? Seems rather superfluous with the *_(all) tags.

nero_claudius_(fate) should not be tagged with nero_claudius_(swimsuit_caster)_(fate), similar to how santa_alter should not be tagged with saber_alter. oh hey... i forgot about tamamo_(fate)_(all).

can we get a request to split her many forms into separate tags, thanks

edit: artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer) shouldn't be implicated with saber

This 10 month old thread started because the amount of tags made posting pictures too difficult. Could we not add any more? At this point I'm all for aliasing santa_alter to saber_alter because all of the her pictures should be searchable with saber_alter christmas_costume.

Yes, you won't be able to search for alternate costumes with a single tag. That's how it is with most other copyrights here. And the copyrights where you can aren't problematic enough to get 12 page threads.

willsolvit said:

This 10 month old thread started because the amount of tags made posting pictures too difficult. Could we not add any more? At this point I'm all for aliasing santa_alter to saber_alter because all of the her pictures should be searchable with saber_alter christmas_costume.

Yes, you won't be able to search for alternate costumes with a single tag. That's how it is with most other copyrights here. And the copyrights where you can aren't problematic enough to get 12 page threads.

No, I started it because the organization and consistency of tags was terrible.
Which is exactly what you proposal works against.

Again.

Santa Alter is Alter in a specific costume associated to a specific personality and a specific context. If people wanna toss the latter out, then make it a general tag, just like the CE costumes.

Most other alternate costumes don't get a good 150 pictures and frankly if it were up to me I'd tag them anyways because I've found that Danbooru for all its anal-retentiveness about tagging is actually very bad at actually finding anything useful based on descriptions because general tags are incredibly underutilized.